The Donald Trump, Illegal Alien, Foreigner, Immigrant Bitch and Moan Thread

[njtosd]

[quote=harvey][quote=njtosd]
Brexit aside – questioning the practical reality and costs associated with immigration does not make one, by definition, an ugly nativist anti immigration type. Almost 7% of kids K-12 in US schools have at least one parent who is undocumented. That is a significant issue and I am so tired of everyone acting like there’s a money tree somewhere that can pay for all of it. Everyone wants to be nice but there is not an endless supply of $.[/quote]

What’s the issue?

K-12 education is a long-term investment that society makes. Public education has historically provided huge returns.

All of American history teaches us that educating children, including the children of immigrants, has tremendous benefits for all Americans. There’s no reason why the documentation status of a child’s parents would change that outcome. Educating children in America – all children – is a win for everyone.[/quote]

I’ve noted that flu changed the title of this thread so I’m going to make this short. Anyone who has read a few of my posts should know I’m an independent that dislikes and distrusts both the Republicans and the Dems. I think there are reasonable arguments on the many sides of the immigration debate. I personally believe that the current population of undocumented immigrants in the US imposes an economic burden rather than a net economic benefit. The size of the burden, whether it exists, and whether we as a country should shoulder it, are all reasonable questions to consider.

FWIW – I have spent hundreds of hours volunteering my time in school and community programs that assist students from disadvantaged backgrounds. I have no question about the value of education, but according to your point of view we should just pay to educate the whole world because we would all be better off. Nice, but unreasonable.

Sorry flu.

[FlyerInHi]

Njtosd, we are not educating the whole world. We are educating kids who are here and part of us.

And so what if they live part time in Mexico? They are here and will be working here.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=FlyerInHi]Njtosd, we are not educating the whole world. We are educating kids who are here and part of us.

And so what if they live part time in Mexico? They are here and will be working here.[/quote]Um, except they don’t live “part time” in Mexico. They live full-time in Mexico and will continue to live full-time in Mexico. The vast majority of their parents can’t afford to live on the US side of the border. And they have kept coming, year after year … for decades. We have a never-ending supply of students who live out of the country filling up our public schools here in SD County. And for those who graduate from high school, completing their A-G requirements for CA public university entrance (and other language and science requirements for the UC, depending on declared major), they can and do take seats from US-citizen applicants in the CSU/UC systems (often with Pell Grants and Cal Grants funded by US and CA taxpayers). Add those freshman applicants (many are “Dream Act” applicants just by virtue of their CA HS diploma) to all the other CSU/UC applicants with foreign HS diplomas and out-of-state HS diplomas and we have a situation here in CA where we have tens of thousands of qualified US citizen HS graduates (born and raised in CA) who applied to multiple campuses of the CSU/UC, were not accepted to ANY campus and are essentially “stuck” in CC until such time they can get admitted to a CA public university as a junior. Which may or may not be the semester/quarter after they obtain their associate degrees …. assuming “life” doesn’t get in the way while they’re waiting. This group will NOT necessarily be able to earn an associate degree in two years, either. That all depends on the impaction of the particular CC they are attending and their willingness and ability to travel to another county CC to obtain their missing credits for their Associate of Transfer degree (favorite alternatives around here are Grossmont and Cuyamaca Colleges). Here in Chula Vista, SWC is terribly impacted. The recent “improvements” ($75M in voter-approved bond funds?) to the campus did NOT increase classroom space or class facilities. Hundreds of former “border crossing” local high school students (now graduates) can and do attend SWC while still residing in Mexico. The vast majority of this group of students undoubtedly qualify for fee waivers due to hailing from “very low income” households.

In short, FIH is claiming these thousands of students crossing the border every day to receive free (K-12) or nearly free (CC) educations in the US are “part of us” and are going to “work in the US.” That isn’t necessarily true. They have to be able to support themselves in the US and their “brethren” who were born and raised in the US can’t even support themselves in their own hometowns! And the US born and raised group typically has more “prosperous parents!”

Here in Cali, we have essentially been allowing Mexicans (in the border counties, the vast majority live in MX and never lived in the US, except as a “temporary guest” in someone else’s home) to use up our educational resources, court resources, social service resources, medical care, Federal food aid and to take up 40% or more of our state prison cells while US born and raised citizens wait in line with them for same finite services and number of seats (except to occupy prisons). Cali has been bulging at the seams with “undocumented aliens” and “anchor babies” for decades. The vast majority of “anchor babies” never lived in the US but were born in the US for the sole reason of getting their piece of the American pie when they turn 18 … and they and their parents admit this! Actually, they’re quite overt about it! I’m sure Congress didn’t consider what could happen in the second half of the 20th century when they crafted section 1 the 14th Amendment and added it to our Constitution. Of course, at that time, there was no such thing as “illegal immigration!”

You can talk to ANY county supervisor or mayor in this state (as well as the state treasurer on up to the governor) and they will ALL tell you the exact same thing that I am regurgitating here and have posted here in the recent and distant past. Nothing has changed and nothing ever will unless something is actually DONE about this (seemingly intractable) problem.

You can start by contacting your local reps here in the “border counties.” They ALL have a front and center box seat to Cali’s budget travails (which trickle on down to its counties and cities) and can intelligently discuss the causes with you. A short and simplistic answer would be that they are 65% due to rampant, unchecked, illegal immigration (and Federal birthright citizenship as a smaller byproduct) and 35% due to Prop 13 and its progeny, Props 58 and 193.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=spdrun]bearishgurl: the number of kids that:
(1) have US citizenship
(2) live in Mexico
and (3) go to school in the US,

is probably an edge case since all three conditions need met.[/quote]spd, there is no such thing as an “edge case,” here. In order to LEGALLY attend public school in CA and TX, the student has to be a RESIDENT of said school district (unless they obtained an inter-district transfer from another school district). In ALL cases, they must be a RESIDENT of said county and state they are seeking eligibility to attend public school in. Students whose families live in Mexico (a foreign country) do not qualify, unless their parent(s) agree to a payment schedule with the school district for payment of monthly tuition for each of their students (in CA … not sure if this applies to TX).

[FlyerInHi]

BG, they go to school here, they work here… They have family here.
Even people who live in Tijuana contribute to our economy, reach and power. You can think of the San Diego Tijuana region as mutually beneficial big economic block. I love the concept of a binational airport and increased binational commerce. We should break down barriers, not build walls.

It doesn’t bother me when American born citizens sponsor their non US citizen relatives. They will come here and contribute.

[njtosd]

[quote=FlyerInHi]Njtosd, we are not educating the whole world. We are educating kids who are here and part of us.

And so what if they live part time in Mexico? They are here and will be working here.[/quote]

Why does it matter where the kids are? Education is a great thing. We should take care of everyone. I think it’s a little small minded to let territorial boundaries get in the way. Kids in Chihuahua are closer to me than the ones in Maine. Why should We discriminate at all? All children deserve the best.

[spdrun]

spd, there is no such thing as an “edge case,” here.

I’m saying the number of students that meet all three conditions approaches zero.

[Anonymous]

[quote=FlyerInHi] We should break down barriers, not build walls. .[/quote]

You are in favor of open borders. Period. Why can’t you just come out and say it?

[bearishgurl]

The use of the terms, “edge case,” “border kids,” “they are here,” “they are part of us” and references to student living in both the US and MX simultaneously (which is impossible, btw, unless they’re living out of their backpacks) are nothing more than attempts at “PC obfuscations” of the real issue which is that thousands of foreign students who reside in another country are stealing classroom seats from US citizen residents who actually reside in the attendance area of said school. This has been going on for decades in broad daylight with multiple “professional” witnesses every day. This results in a multitude of problems, nearly all which are profound and cost US and state taxpayers a fortune.

a) a student moving into the attendance area of a particular school being denied a seat at that school due to overcrowding. Their parents may or may not be paying exorbitant Mello Roos which was used to build and fund improvements at their neighborhood schools;

b) a US citizen, RESIDENT English-speaking elementary school student is placed at their grade level in their neighborhood school where 3.5 out of 4 classes offered at their grade level are comprised of ESL students, effectively holding back the progress of the 10-12 native English speakers at that grade level in that school;

c) the presence of a majority of ESL students at a particular elementary or middle school effectively lowers the test scores and ratings of that school, often so profoundly that the school is eventually placed on the NCLB “watch list” making it possible for nearly ALL its native English-speaking RESIDENT students to flee that school for a more distant, better performing school in the district; and,

d) The districts’ budgets have been so compromised in past decades (since about the mid-nineties) that art, music and PE has all but been eliminated in elementary and middle schools. The few teachers the districts employ in these subjects must travel from school to school and teach these classes 2-4x month to the students. This contributes to the childhood obesity epidemic, IMO. Mello Roos bonds can be used to pay for gym equipment, etc, but instead has been deployed to pay for (expensive) ESL materials for the masses.

Allowing daily border-crossing students (mostly non-English speaking in the lower grades) to use our schools is simply facilitating a race to the bottom for nearly all the residents of the district and moreso as the years go on. Homes in areas where the public schools are overrun with ESL students do not maintain their values as well or appreciate as well as other parts of the county where this problem isn’t as pronounced (or is nonexistent).

And a large portion of teachers in South County can retire today with 30 years service and get pensions equivalent to full pay, yet they are still working, ESPecially in CVESD. (So it would be fine if we had to shut down 4-6 elementary schools due to disenrollment of a huge portion of the student population due to lack of proof of bona-fide residency.) Another large group trails them with 25+ years of service. These teachers are very good at what they do … getting these thousands of ESL students English literate before entering middle school. It is very challenging and they are very patient and skilled in their jobs. And I could see South County closing 2-3 middle schools and possibly 2 high schools if stricter rules at the border were enforced, along with stricter rules for proving residency.

Currently, no identification is asked for or required of an adult who comes into a school or the district office to register a student for school and prove their residency. The adult doing this (1) does not have to prove who they are; (2) does not have to prove it is their name of the utility bills, leases, deed, closing docs, guardianship affidavit, etc, which they are presenting to establish their student’s residency; (3) does not have to prove they are related to the student in any way; and (4) does not have to prove that it was they who actually executed a “guardianship affidavit” used to establish the student’s residency. They could be using someone else’s documents and as long as the name of the guardian on the guardianship affidavit matches the name on ONE utility bill and that affidavit lists their “charge” with the name of the student they are attempting to register, they’re golden! Essentially, the registering adult could be anyone! There are so many holes in the procedure and almost no guardians have the same last name as the student they are registering. It is a red flag that so many “guardianship affidavits” are accepted by the school/district relative to the general student population but the administration doesn’t care. In addition, some schools actually use student workers in the office to verify residency!

I personally have gone into my kids’ HS numerous times to “prove residency” for my student to student workers and/or 20-something school office workers with their dad’s utility bills and residency verification form HE filled out and signed because he had a very demanding job. He is a male and I am a female. They don’t know me and never asked me my name. The bills weren’t for my address and they could care less. They just compare the documents with a list of acceptable documents taped to the counter and accept them. My student kid was never with me (they were usually in class at the time) and there was no one there to call me “mom.”

[SK in CV]

But still no evidence to support your outrageous “25%” claim?

[bearishgurl]

[quote=SK in CV]But still no evidence to support your outrageous “25%” claim?[/quote]It’s not outrageous. Why don’t you come visit some family here and take a few HS parking lot drive-bys yourself? The first week of August would be perfect! You’re another one that has lived too far from the border to have ever experienced anything like this. Come on down!

Better yet, park at the San Ysidro trolley stop at 6:00 am on any school morning and watch the throngs of kids with backpacks on walk in from MX (or get dropped off) and board the trolley. And the next. And the next. Better yet, arrive at 5:45 a.m. and stay at least a full hour to get a more accurate portrayal of what exactly is going on here. If you really wanted to obtain a full understanding of the problem, you could spend a week here and plant yourself at all the trolley stops between SY and 8th St (NC) starting at 6:15 a.m. and see how many kids with backpacks get off at each and every stop for a full hour (4 trolleys).

Hint #1: If you’re squeezed for time, most of the border-crossing students will disembark the trolley at Iris Ave, Palomar and H Street, where they will immediately board a SD or CV Transit bus.

Hint #2: Few “resident” students in South County take the trolley to school. They get dropped off by private vehicle, take the school bus or take a city bus (CV or NC bus). But they don’t catch city buses at the trolley station. They catch them near their homes.

[SK in CV]

So I guess that’s a no? No actual evidence? Just anecdotes? You know that’s not the same as data, right?

[spdrun]

Work the math.

San Diego school district apparently has 130,000 students. Probably 200,000 counting suburban schools outside the city.

How many kids are in those “throngs”? What is the capacity of a trolley?

The trolleys seem to run three-car trains, with I’d say a sitting/standing capacity of 100 per trolley car. Say the pertinent period is two hours, and there are eight trolleys per hour on the line during rush hour (apparently frequency is 1x per 7.5 minutes).

100 x 3 x 8 x 2 = 4800 people. Assuming 50% of each trolley car is full of border-crossing students (a high estimate), that’s 2400 kids per day.

About 1.2% of the entire student population of the county. They’re also mostly linguistically homogeneous (Spanish as primary language, vs possibility of local languages only if originating from further south in .mx), so teaching them English should be easy vs a more polyglot student population.

Am I missing something?

[bearishgurl]

[quote=spdrun]Work the math.

San Diego school district apparently has 130,000 students. Probably 200,000 counting suburban schools outside the city.

How many kids are in those “throngs”? What is the capacity of a trolley?

The trolleys seem to run three-car trains, with I’d say a sitting/standing capacity of 100 per trolley car. Say the pertinent period is two hours, and there are four trolleys per hour on the line.

100 x 3 x 4 x 2 = 2400 people. Assuming 50% of each trolley car is full of border-crossing students (a high estimate), that’s 1200 kids per day.

About 1/2 of one percent of the entire student population of the county. Am I missing something?[/quote]Yes. You’re missing the thousands of private vehicles sporting Baja CA plates crossing the border every morning and dropping kids off for school … even as far as SD and East County (but usually those further school destinations are because the driving parent works near those schools). And you’re also missing hundreds … maybe over 1000 private vehicles with Baja plates being driven over the border every morning by high school students themselves and parked in the student parking lot of the school they’re attending.

Re: the trolley, you are almost correct, except:

In the early morning (5:30 to 6:00 am) there are likely more students boarding the trolley at SY than workers.

When students disembark at Iris and Palomar to catch buses, other students from MX get on to disembark at a station further north. Their parent dropped them off or will pick them up in the afternoon at these stations to go to their own jobs or shop before meeting their kids in the afternoon.

The border crossing students start boarding the trolley at SY about 5:30 am but the big crowds are between 6:00 am and 7:00 am. In South County, the latest any elementary school starts is about 8:30 am but most start before 8:00 am. MS/HS start 1st period earlier (7:15 am to 7:45 am).

So the “pertinent period” is about 1.5 to 2 hrs in the morning BUT you were only counting boardings at SY. You are not accounting for boardings further north on the blue line.

Your estimate of the student population is low for the entire county but high for the affected districts. I can get you the relevant figures of the four actual school districts the vast majority of border crossing students are attending.

[spdrun]

By my revised estimate: 2400 students on the trolleys coming from the southernmost station near the border.

“Thousands” crossing by car driven by their parents. Say 3000?

“A thousand” by car driven by students themselves.

We’re up to 6400 students, or 3.2% of entire student population. If it’s concentrated in certain districts, it doesn’t seem to be a county-wide issue, and the total number of students is relatively small compared to county population.

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