Anyone know a good divorce lawyer?

[jpinpb]

Navydoc – How is “love” being cynical? I have basically said that the real reason men and women are together is for and out of love.

I do not think that women who are w/men for money are happy. I fundamentally honestly and truly believe that money does not buy happiness.

I stripped away all the “reasons” that are claimed. Some men like the Daves of the world or paranoid men overestimate their “need” which they claim is for money and sperm. Although in a loving relationship these would all make the package complete, in reality, in today’s world, women are not so helpless that this is a “need.”

Now, “want” is something entirely different.

As far as a single parent versus two, if both parents are good parents, that is the ideal situation, of course, and I won’t argue or dispute that. Now if one parent is an alcholic or drug addict or physically, mentally, emotionally or psychologically abusive, is this an ideal situation for a child to be raised in just b/c the number of parents is 2? Or would a single parent be better in that type of situation?

Since most men are less inclined to have children, should women who want children but have not met any men who desire that, should they just shrivel up and die or suffer a solitary barren existence? If they are financially able and want children and can provide a loving, selfless life for her child, w/care and nurturing and education and social life w/activities, why would that be a bad thing?

I say that environment is far better than that of a marriage gone bad staying together “for the children” as if the children cannot sense the love is gone and perhaps resentment felt in the home, perhaps anger and unhappiness.

You say: “From my experiences working at inpatient child psych wards, virtually ALL of those kids come from dysfunctional families, the majority single parent.”

Some dysfunctional families can be 2 parents raising a child. Some divorces occur b/c of the aforementioned reasons, alcohol, physical abuse, etc, in which case, I believe divorce is a better alternative, especially for the safety of the child, physically, mentally and emotionally.

You say: “You’re simply much less likely to do drugs, commit a violent crime, drop out of school, etc. if you come from a stable family”

Key is “stable.” Also it is now medically proven that alcoholism is hereditary. I believe the inclination to be an addict is a physical problem. Two children can be raised in the same household environment and one can have the propensity to be an alcoholic or a drug addict, regardless of how healthy a home/family environment is.

I do not believe that genetically women are the problem in wanting and raising children. Their natural tendency is to care and nurture. But your comment regarding “family values” should apply to men of today since a greater percentage are shunning having children. I do not fault a women to make a decision to have a baby if that is her desire.

Back in the day if a woman “accidentally” got pregnant, the noble father would marry her. This has lead to unhappy marriages and dysfunctional children.

Back to my original point. LOVE. If two people love each other and both decide to have a child or children, that is the ideal situation for themselves and the kids.

BUT on the other hand, I also believe that men don’t have one up on women b/c of money and sperm. The Daves of the world can go on to have a childless life. That is apparently accepted as ok. Why would it not be ok if a woman decides to make a conscious decision to have a child on her own. I don’t think this makes her a bad parent at all, in fact, the contrary. Much more devoted.

[Navydoc]

I don’t disagree with your points, I think I was responding to your comment that men are really only needed for the sperm. The data is overwhelming on the multiple parent households, and interestingly enough, outcomes typically are better even if one parent is “dysfunctional”, i.e alcoholic,etc.

The following article in Pediatrics summarizes the family situation nicely:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/111/6/S1/1541

Also interesting for all you single childless men out there:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VBF-4BY3N4T-3&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=00c7e88a4665b6c9c5f91bbcb1d04637

Hope those links work. This is in response to Piggingtons “all other bring data” mantra.

So you see, marriage does in fact matter, but, as you say, it is certainly possible to raise a child singly if you have the resources, it is just more difficult. The concept of a single professional woman having a child independently is much less common than you might think.

By the way, slightly OT, want to hear something gross? Research has shown that the top 10% most sexually active males have sex with 50-60% of the females in a given population. This is true for all mammal species, including humans. No wonder I’m treating so many STD’s.

My post was intended to point out the importance of the family. You’re right, love is important, but so is the message to teach our children that it is important to make things work. For much of my early life my father was an opiate abuser and an alcoholic, and those years caused my mother a great deal of pain and hardship. But suddenly in 1977, when I was 12, he got his collective shit together and cleaned himself up. If my mother had caved during the addict years I and my 4 siblings would have done much more poorly than we have. I’m sure I wouldn’t have summoned the energy to put myself through school the way I did. Quite simply, my parents taught me perserverence, a lesson all too frequently ignored in todays society.

[Navydoc]

I don’t disagree with your points, I think I was responding to your comment that men are really only needed for the sperm. The data is overwhelming on the multiple parent households, and interestingly enough, outcomes typically are better even if one parent is “dysfunctional”, i.e alcoholic,etc.

The following article in Pediatrics summarizes the family situation nicely:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/111/6/S1/1541

Also interesting for all you single childless men out there:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VBF-4BY3N4T-3&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=00c7e88a4665b6c9c5f91bbcb1d04637

Hope those links work. This is in response to Piggingtons “all other bring data” mantra.

So you see, marriage does in fact matter, but, as you say, it is certainly possible to raise a child singly if you have the resources, it is just more difficult. The concept of a single professional woman having a child independently is much less common than you might think.

By the way, slightly OT, want to hear something gross? Research has shown that the top 10% most sexually active males have sex with 50-60% of the females in a given population. This is true for all mammal species, including humans. No wonder I’m treating so many STD’s.

My post was intended to point out the importance of the family. You’re right, love is important, but so is the message to teach our children that it is important to make things work. For much of my early life my father was an opiate abuser and an alcoholic, and those years caused my mother a great deal of pain and hardship. But suddenly in 1977, when I was 12, he got his collective shit together and cleaned himself up. If my mother had caved during the addict years I and my 4 siblings would have done much more poorly than we have. I’m sure I wouldn’t have summoned the energy to put myself through school the way I did. Quite simply, my parents taught me perserverence, a lesson all too frequently ignored in todays society.

[Navydoc]

I don’t disagree with your points, I think I was responding to your comment that men are really only needed for the sperm. The data is overwhelming on the multiple parent households, and interestingly enough, outcomes typically are better even if one parent is “dysfunctional”, i.e alcoholic,etc.

The following article in Pediatrics summarizes the family situation nicely:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/111/6/S1/1541

Also interesting for all you single childless men out there:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VBF-4BY3N4T-3&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=00c7e88a4665b6c9c5f91bbcb1d04637

Hope those links work. This is in response to Piggingtons “all other bring data” mantra.

So you see, marriage does in fact matter, but, as you say, it is certainly possible to raise a child singly if you have the resources, it is just more difficult. The concept of a single professional woman having a child independently is much less common than you might think.

By the way, slightly OT, want to hear something gross? Research has shown that the top 10% most sexually active males have sex with 50-60% of the females in a given population. This is true for all mammal species, including humans. No wonder I’m treating so many STD’s.

My post was intended to point out the importance of the family. You’re right, love is important, but so is the message to teach our children that it is important to make things work. For much of my early life my father was an opiate abuser and an alcoholic, and those years caused my mother a great deal of pain and hardship. But suddenly in 1977, when I was 12, he got his collective shit together and cleaned himself up. If my mother had caved during the addict years I and my 4 siblings would have done much more poorly than we have. I’m sure I wouldn’t have summoned the energy to put myself through school the way I did. Quite simply, my parents taught me perserverence, a lesson all too frequently ignored in todays society.

[Navydoc]

I don’t disagree with your points, I think I was responding to your comment that men are really only needed for the sperm. The data is overwhelming on the multiple parent households, and interestingly enough, outcomes typically are better even if one parent is “dysfunctional”, i.e alcoholic,etc.

The following article in Pediatrics summarizes the family situation nicely:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/111/6/S1/1541

Also interesting for all you single childless men out there:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VBF-4BY3N4T-3&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=00c7e88a4665b6c9c5f91bbcb1d04637

Hope those links work. This is in response to Piggingtons “all other bring data” mantra.

So you see, marriage does in fact matter, but, as you say, it is certainly possible to raise a child singly if you have the resources, it is just more difficult. The concept of a single professional woman having a child independently is much less common than you might think.

By the way, slightly OT, want to hear something gross? Research has shown that the top 10% most sexually active males have sex with 50-60% of the females in a given population. This is true for all mammal species, including humans. No wonder I’m treating so many STD’s.

My post was intended to point out the importance of the family. You’re right, love is important, but so is the message to teach our children that it is important to make things work. For much of my early life my father was an opiate abuser and an alcoholic, and those years caused my mother a great deal of pain and hardship. But suddenly in 1977, when I was 12, he got his collective shit together and cleaned himself up. If my mother had caved during the addict years I and my 4 siblings would have done much more poorly than we have. I’m sure I wouldn’t have summoned the energy to put myself through school the way I did. Quite simply, my parents taught me perserverence, a lesson all too frequently ignored in todays society.

[Navydoc]

I don’t disagree with your points, I think I was responding to your comment that men are really only needed for the sperm. The data is overwhelming on the multiple parent households, and interestingly enough, outcomes typically are better even if one parent is “dysfunctional”, i.e alcoholic,etc.

The following article in Pediatrics summarizes the family situation nicely:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/111/6/S1/1541

Also interesting for all you single childless men out there:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VBF-4BY3N4T-3&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=00c7e88a4665b6c9c5f91bbcb1d04637

Hope those links work. This is in response to Piggingtons “all other bring data” mantra.

So you see, marriage does in fact matter, but, as you say, it is certainly possible to raise a child singly if you have the resources, it is just more difficult. The concept of a single professional woman having a child independently is much less common than you might think.

By the way, slightly OT, want to hear something gross? Research has shown that the top 10% most sexually active males have sex with 50-60% of the females in a given population. This is true for all mammal species, including humans. No wonder I’m treating so many STD’s.

My post was intended to point out the importance of the family. You’re right, love is important, but so is the message to teach our children that it is important to make things work. For much of my early life my father was an opiate abuser and an alcoholic, and those years caused my mother a great deal of pain and hardship. But suddenly in 1977, when I was 12, he got his collective shit together and cleaned himself up. If my mother had caved during the addict years I and my 4 siblings would have done much more poorly than we have. I’m sure I wouldn’t have summoned the energy to put myself through school the way I did. Quite simply, my parents taught me perserverence, a lesson all too frequently ignored in todays society.

[NotCranky]

JPINPB,
However it comes out dependence and risk is a component or child rearing for men and for women. I don’t want the risk that we go down a slippery slope of avoiding this and a subsequent wealth transfer to women who go the sperm bank route. That would involve the goverment of course. That isn’t to to say I don’t think dependent children and women shouldn’t be cared for of course. I just don’t think we should institutionalize what I see as another un-wellness, a harem structure where the sperm is quasi- random and the sheik is the government. For what ti is worth my wife isn’t down with what I am saying we discussed it an agreed to disagree.
This has been fun you all. You too davelj.You definitely had some things to say. Sorry you have to help raise my kids if I turn into a F%&K-up and those of women who have children conceived via losers or sperm banks some of whom will certainly despise you for doing too little. Maybe you don’t mind? That little procedure is reversible now if you have a change of heart after my heart wrenching story of the “celebrating party” and the wonderful postings by the others.
Going back to housing topics where I am both loved and needed, as long as I am sufficiently bearish.
Thanks.

[NotCranky]

JPINPB,
However it comes out dependence and risk is a component or child rearing for men and for women. I don’t want the risk that we go down a slippery slope of avoiding this and a subsequent wealth transfer to women who go the sperm bank route. That would involve the goverment of course. That isn’t to to say I don’t think dependent children and women shouldn’t be cared for of course. I just don’t think we should institutionalize what I see as another un-wellness, a harem structure where the sperm is quasi- random and the sheik is the government. For what ti is worth my wife isn’t down with what I am saying we discussed it an agreed to disagree.
This has been fun you all. You too davelj.You definitely had some things to say. Sorry you have to help raise my kids if I turn into a F%&K-up and those of women who have children conceived via losers or sperm banks some of whom will certainly despise you for doing too little. Maybe you don’t mind? That little procedure is reversible now if you have a change of heart after my heart wrenching story of the “celebrating party” and the wonderful postings by the others.
Going back to housing topics where I am both loved and needed, as long as I am sufficiently bearish.
Thanks.

[NotCranky]

JPINPB,
However it comes out dependence and risk is a component or child rearing for men and for women. I don’t want the risk that we go down a slippery slope of avoiding this and a subsequent wealth transfer to women who go the sperm bank route. That would involve the goverment of course. That isn’t to to say I don’t think dependent children and women shouldn’t be cared for of course. I just don’t think we should institutionalize what I see as another un-wellness, a harem structure where the sperm is quasi- random and the sheik is the government. For what ti is worth my wife isn’t down with what I am saying we discussed it an agreed to disagree.
This has been fun you all. You too davelj.You definitely had some things to say. Sorry you have to help raise my kids if I turn into a F%&K-up and those of women who have children conceived via losers or sperm banks some of whom will certainly despise you for doing too little. Maybe you don’t mind? That little procedure is reversible now if you have a change of heart after my heart wrenching story of the “celebrating party” and the wonderful postings by the others.
Going back to housing topics where I am both loved and needed, as long as I am sufficiently bearish.
Thanks.

[NotCranky]

JPINPB,
However it comes out dependence and risk is a component or child rearing for men and for women. I don’t want the risk that we go down a slippery slope of avoiding this and a subsequent wealth transfer to women who go the sperm bank route. That would involve the goverment of course. That isn’t to to say I don’t think dependent children and women shouldn’t be cared for of course. I just don’t think we should institutionalize what I see as another un-wellness, a harem structure where the sperm is quasi- random and the sheik is the government. For what ti is worth my wife isn’t down with what I am saying we discussed it an agreed to disagree.
This has been fun you all. You too davelj.You definitely had some things to say. Sorry you have to help raise my kids if I turn into a F%&K-up and those of women who have children conceived via losers or sperm banks some of whom will certainly despise you for doing too little. Maybe you don’t mind? That little procedure is reversible now if you have a change of heart after my heart wrenching story of the “celebrating party” and the wonderful postings by the others.
Going back to housing topics where I am both loved and needed, as long as I am sufficiently bearish.
Thanks.

[NotCranky]

JPINPB,
However it comes out dependence and risk is a component or child rearing for men and for women. I don’t want the risk that we go down a slippery slope of avoiding this and a subsequent wealth transfer to women who go the sperm bank route. That would involve the goverment of course. That isn’t to to say I don’t think dependent children and women shouldn’t be cared for of course. I just don’t think we should institutionalize what I see as another un-wellness, a harem structure where the sperm is quasi- random and the sheik is the government. For what ti is worth my wife isn’t down with what I am saying we discussed it an agreed to disagree.
This has been fun you all. You too davelj.You definitely had some things to say. Sorry you have to help raise my kids if I turn into a F%&K-up and those of women who have children conceived via losers or sperm banks some of whom will certainly despise you for doing too little. Maybe you don’t mind? That little procedure is reversible now if you have a change of heart after my heart wrenching story of the “celebrating party” and the wonderful postings by the others.
Going back to housing topics where I am both loved and needed, as long as I am sufficiently bearish.
Thanks.

[jpinpb]

I never said men are needed for sperm, in fact the contrary nowadays. Dave made it sound like we need men for their sperm. The real purpose of men and women on the planet is to procreate. Why would you be given that ability if it were not meant to continue life? But if men want to “withhold” their sperm, women are not stuck w/not having children. There are options out there. That makes the “need” for a man gone.

I will concede that raising a child single is extremely difficult and not a conscious decision I would make. I would say the greatest deterrent is financial. If you have money, you can get all the help necessary.

I also never said that marriage doesn’t matter. I think that when two people love each other and marry it is a beautiful thing and they are blessed.

It is great when couples can overcome problems. It does teach perserverence. That happy ending doesn’t always happen when someone is pigheadded (no offense to piggs at all) Some chronic alcholics or people who are generally unhappy w/their lives who abuse others will never see the light or get help for themselves.

I would not condemn women to continue to stay in that kind of relationship and subject themselves and children to that kind of danger physically, emotionally or psychologically. It is traumatic and unhealthy. To stay and enables the person who is sick to continue as is. No motivation to get help.

I did not mean in anyway to diminish men by any of my comments. Wanting and loving men for all their good is worth it.

Edit – I do not think the government should subsidize families. I have said I don’t have children of my own, circumstances and decisions and “fate” in my life, but at the same time, I would not want my tax dollars supporting women who chose to have children – – any more than I would want my tax dollars paying for someone who made the decision to buy a house they couldn’t afford. Cold-hearted as it may sound. I made a difficult decision. I’m not going to be penalized for it and reward someone else, whether it be house or kids. If a woman makes a decision to buy a house on her own or have a kid on her own, she best well be sure she can afford it.

[jpinpb]

I never said men are needed for sperm, in fact the contrary nowadays. Dave made it sound like we need men for their sperm. The real purpose of men and women on the planet is to procreate. Why would you be given that ability if it were not meant to continue life? But if men want to “withhold” their sperm, women are not stuck w/not having children. There are options out there. That makes the “need” for a man gone.

I will concede that raising a child single is extremely difficult and not a conscious decision I would make. I would say the greatest deterrent is financial. If you have money, you can get all the help necessary.

I also never said that marriage doesn’t matter. I think that when two people love each other and marry it is a beautiful thing and they are blessed.

It is great when couples can overcome problems. It does teach perserverence. That happy ending doesn’t always happen when someone is pigheadded (no offense to piggs at all) Some chronic alcholics or people who are generally unhappy w/their lives who abuse others will never see the light or get help for themselves.

I would not condemn women to continue to stay in that kind of relationship and subject themselves and children to that kind of danger physically, emotionally or psychologically. It is traumatic and unhealthy. To stay and enables the person who is sick to continue as is. No motivation to get help.

I did not mean in anyway to diminish men by any of my comments. Wanting and loving men for all their good is worth it.

Edit – I do not think the government should subsidize families. I have said I don’t have children of my own, circumstances and decisions and “fate” in my life, but at the same time, I would not want my tax dollars supporting women who chose to have children – – any more than I would want my tax dollars paying for someone who made the decision to buy a house they couldn’t afford. Cold-hearted as it may sound. I made a difficult decision. I’m not going to be penalized for it and reward someone else, whether it be house or kids. If a woman makes a decision to buy a house on her own or have a kid on her own, she best well be sure she can afford it.

[jpinpb]

I never said men are needed for sperm, in fact the contrary nowadays. Dave made it sound like we need men for their sperm. The real purpose of men and women on the planet is to procreate. Why would you be given that ability if it were not meant to continue life? But if men want to “withhold” their sperm, women are not stuck w/not having children. There are options out there. That makes the “need” for a man gone.

I will concede that raising a child single is extremely difficult and not a conscious decision I would make. I would say the greatest deterrent is financial. If you have money, you can get all the help necessary.

I also never said that marriage doesn’t matter. I think that when two people love each other and marry it is a beautiful thing and they are blessed.

It is great when couples can overcome problems. It does teach perserverence. That happy ending doesn’t always happen when someone is pigheadded (no offense to piggs at all) Some chronic alcholics or people who are generally unhappy w/their lives who abuse others will never see the light or get help for themselves.

I would not condemn women to continue to stay in that kind of relationship and subject themselves and children to that kind of danger physically, emotionally or psychologically. It is traumatic and unhealthy. To stay and enables the person who is sick to continue as is. No motivation to get help.

I did not mean in anyway to diminish men by any of my comments. Wanting and loving men for all their good is worth it.

Edit – I do not think the government should subsidize families. I have said I don’t have children of my own, circumstances and decisions and “fate” in my life, but at the same time, I would not want my tax dollars supporting women who chose to have children – – any more than I would want my tax dollars paying for someone who made the decision to buy a house they couldn’t afford. Cold-hearted as it may sound. I made a difficult decision. I’m not going to be penalized for it and reward someone else, whether it be house or kids. If a woman makes a decision to buy a house on her own or have a kid on her own, she best well be sure she can afford it.

[jpinpb]

I never said men are needed for sperm, in fact the contrary nowadays. Dave made it sound like we need men for their sperm. The real purpose of men and women on the planet is to procreate. Why would you be given that ability if it were not meant to continue life? But if men want to “withhold” their sperm, women are not stuck w/not having children. There are options out there. That makes the “need” for a man gone.

I will concede that raising a child single is extremely difficult and not a conscious decision I would make. I would say the greatest deterrent is financial. If you have money, you can get all the help necessary.

I also never said that marriage doesn’t matter. I think that when two people love each other and marry it is a beautiful thing and they are blessed.

It is great when couples can overcome problems. It does teach perserverence. That happy ending doesn’t always happen when someone is pigheadded (no offense to piggs at all) Some chronic alcholics or people who are generally unhappy w/their lives who abuse others will never see the light or get help for themselves.

I would not condemn women to continue to stay in that kind of relationship and subject themselves and children to that kind of danger physically, emotionally or psychologically. It is traumatic and unhealthy. To stay and enables the person who is sick to continue as is. No motivation to get help.

I did not mean in anyway to diminish men by any of my comments. Wanting and loving men for all their good is worth it.

Edit – I do not think the government should subsidize families. I have said I don’t have children of my own, circumstances and decisions and “fate” in my life, but at the same time, I would not want my tax dollars supporting women who chose to have children – – any more than I would want my tax dollars paying for someone who made the decision to buy a house they couldn’t afford. Cold-hearted as it may sound. I made a difficult decision. I’m not going to be penalized for it and reward someone else, whether it be house or kids. If a woman makes a decision to buy a house on her own or have a kid on her own, she best well be sure she can afford it.

[Author]

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