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April 12, 2008 at 7:33 AM #185485April 12, 2008 at 7:49 AM #185438NotCrankyParticipant
A question based on observation. Why is it that most women who go to sperm banks do so out of desperation when they are nearing 40 apparently unwanted by men or incapable of consumating a comfortable relationship with one in time to have a possibility of a traditional family unit at least for a few years?
Men are needed and this other thing is a cop out and coverup for dysfunction in pairing up.That is probably way too harsh. Maybe it is part fate. Fate just doesn’t serve up the opportunity for some reason? Not that these are not wonderful women in so many ways. I have met several. I have known several over decades and know that they had unfullfilled longings for quality male companionship before they took this ultimate decision. In some instances I might have been “the one” had they been more capable and/or more seductive.
Also in the animal kingom all this offspring rearing and pairing up happens with different degrees of “parental bonding” Some animals, even birds pair for life. They can’t help themselves. Others do so to varying degrees and periods of time. They also can’t help themselves given normal circumstances. Humans are significantly a pairing animal. Nature creates the need. Sure it can be subverted or missed, but that doesn’t mean it is not inherent in humans and if it is not, lack is isolated to individuals.
Maybe epidmeics of this lack are possible in sophisticated civilization but even that hasn’t proved that nature has changed.April 12, 2008 at 7:49 AM #185457NotCrankyParticipantA question based on observation. Why is it that most women who go to sperm banks do so out of desperation when they are nearing 40 apparently unwanted by men or incapable of consumating a comfortable relationship with one in time to have a possibility of a traditional family unit at least for a few years?
Men are needed and this other thing is a cop out and coverup for dysfunction in pairing up.That is probably way too harsh. Maybe it is part fate. Fate just doesn’t serve up the opportunity for some reason? Not that these are not wonderful women in so many ways. I have met several. I have known several over decades and know that they had unfullfilled longings for quality male companionship before they took this ultimate decision. In some instances I might have been “the one” had they been more capable and/or more seductive.
Also in the animal kingom all this offspring rearing and pairing up happens with different degrees of “parental bonding” Some animals, even birds pair for life. They can’t help themselves. Others do so to varying degrees and periods of time. They also can’t help themselves given normal circumstances. Humans are significantly a pairing animal. Nature creates the need. Sure it can be subverted or missed, but that doesn’t mean it is not inherent in humans and if it is not, lack is isolated to individuals.
Maybe epidmeics of this lack are possible in sophisticated civilization but even that hasn’t proved that nature has changed.April 12, 2008 at 7:49 AM #185484NotCrankyParticipantA question based on observation. Why is it that most women who go to sperm banks do so out of desperation when they are nearing 40 apparently unwanted by men or incapable of consumating a comfortable relationship with one in time to have a possibility of a traditional family unit at least for a few years?
Men are needed and this other thing is a cop out and coverup for dysfunction in pairing up.That is probably way too harsh. Maybe it is part fate. Fate just doesn’t serve up the opportunity for some reason? Not that these are not wonderful women in so many ways. I have met several. I have known several over decades and know that they had unfullfilled longings for quality male companionship before they took this ultimate decision. In some instances I might have been “the one” had they been more capable and/or more seductive.
Also in the animal kingom all this offspring rearing and pairing up happens with different degrees of “parental bonding” Some animals, even birds pair for life. They can’t help themselves. Others do so to varying degrees and periods of time. They also can’t help themselves given normal circumstances. Humans are significantly a pairing animal. Nature creates the need. Sure it can be subverted or missed, but that doesn’t mean it is not inherent in humans and if it is not, lack is isolated to individuals.
Maybe epidmeics of this lack are possible in sophisticated civilization but even that hasn’t proved that nature has changed.April 12, 2008 at 7:49 AM #185491NotCrankyParticipantA question based on observation. Why is it that most women who go to sperm banks do so out of desperation when they are nearing 40 apparently unwanted by men or incapable of consumating a comfortable relationship with one in time to have a possibility of a traditional family unit at least for a few years?
Men are needed and this other thing is a cop out and coverup for dysfunction in pairing up.That is probably way too harsh. Maybe it is part fate. Fate just doesn’t serve up the opportunity for some reason? Not that these are not wonderful women in so many ways. I have met several. I have known several over decades and know that they had unfullfilled longings for quality male companionship before they took this ultimate decision. In some instances I might have been “the one” had they been more capable and/or more seductive.
Also in the animal kingom all this offspring rearing and pairing up happens with different degrees of “parental bonding” Some animals, even birds pair for life. They can’t help themselves. Others do so to varying degrees and periods of time. They also can’t help themselves given normal circumstances. Humans are significantly a pairing animal. Nature creates the need. Sure it can be subverted or missed, but that doesn’t mean it is not inherent in humans and if it is not, lack is isolated to individuals.
Maybe epidmeics of this lack are possible in sophisticated civilization but even that hasn’t proved that nature has changed.April 12, 2008 at 7:49 AM #185495NotCrankyParticipantA question based on observation. Why is it that most women who go to sperm banks do so out of desperation when they are nearing 40 apparently unwanted by men or incapable of consumating a comfortable relationship with one in time to have a possibility of a traditional family unit at least for a few years?
Men are needed and this other thing is a cop out and coverup for dysfunction in pairing up.That is probably way too harsh. Maybe it is part fate. Fate just doesn’t serve up the opportunity for some reason? Not that these are not wonderful women in so many ways. I have met several. I have known several over decades and know that they had unfullfilled longings for quality male companionship before they took this ultimate decision. In some instances I might have been “the one” had they been more capable and/or more seductive.
Also in the animal kingom all this offspring rearing and pairing up happens with different degrees of “parental bonding” Some animals, even birds pair for life. They can’t help themselves. Others do so to varying degrees and periods of time. They also can’t help themselves given normal circumstances. Humans are significantly a pairing animal. Nature creates the need. Sure it can be subverted or missed, but that doesn’t mean it is not inherent in humans and if it is not, lack is isolated to individuals.
Maybe epidmeics of this lack are possible in sophisticated civilization but even that hasn’t proved that nature has changed.April 12, 2008 at 8:39 AM #185463jpinpbParticipantRustico – I can only speak for myself. I have had extremely successful relationships w/men some of whom I am still very good friends with. They have made decisions to not have children. Some have actually, like Dave, had vasectomies. That is their decision and I do not think they are necessarily bad for that. In fact, responsible on their part. On the other hand, since at the time I wanted to have a baby, I knew that was not a relationship that I should be in b/c the person I would want to be with should also want the same thing as far as I wanted, a family.
If I found myself in this situation more than once, then I imagine there may be other women in a similar predicament. I don’t know if it’s b/c of “Generation Me” but my experience is that fewer men are choosing the path of wanting children. It is not a question of whether a man and woman get along, but more a question of finding a man who is inclined to want a family.
That said, I did not want to sacrifice “love” for merely the desire to have a child. In other words, I would not settle to be w/a man purely to have a child. I would like “love” to be in that mix and so if there wasn’t that feeling of love, then some of the men who I met that wanted children were not someone to be w/for that sole reason. Compatibility is also important.
As far as “needed”, I know that is a touchy topic for men. Many want to feel needed and some like to sense their need gives them power, indispensible. But as I said, women are not so helpless nowadays. We want men in our lives for love and personally the men I have been w/were loved and cared for and wanted and appreciated and respected. Need should not be confused with want.
It applies to material objects certainly and many piggs know the difference between buying “things” b/c of want or need, being a consumer or saving b/c the item is just a want not a need.
I say this should apply to relationships. Being wanted has more value than being needed, in that respect, MPO. Want is a desire, decision/choice.
April 12, 2008 at 8:39 AM #185482jpinpbParticipantRustico – I can only speak for myself. I have had extremely successful relationships w/men some of whom I am still very good friends with. They have made decisions to not have children. Some have actually, like Dave, had vasectomies. That is their decision and I do not think they are necessarily bad for that. In fact, responsible on their part. On the other hand, since at the time I wanted to have a baby, I knew that was not a relationship that I should be in b/c the person I would want to be with should also want the same thing as far as I wanted, a family.
If I found myself in this situation more than once, then I imagine there may be other women in a similar predicament. I don’t know if it’s b/c of “Generation Me” but my experience is that fewer men are choosing the path of wanting children. It is not a question of whether a man and woman get along, but more a question of finding a man who is inclined to want a family.
That said, I did not want to sacrifice “love” for merely the desire to have a child. In other words, I would not settle to be w/a man purely to have a child. I would like “love” to be in that mix and so if there wasn’t that feeling of love, then some of the men who I met that wanted children were not someone to be w/for that sole reason. Compatibility is also important.
As far as “needed”, I know that is a touchy topic for men. Many want to feel needed and some like to sense their need gives them power, indispensible. But as I said, women are not so helpless nowadays. We want men in our lives for love and personally the men I have been w/were loved and cared for and wanted and appreciated and respected. Need should not be confused with want.
It applies to material objects certainly and many piggs know the difference between buying “things” b/c of want or need, being a consumer or saving b/c the item is just a want not a need.
I say this should apply to relationships. Being wanted has more value than being needed, in that respect, MPO. Want is a desire, decision/choice.
April 12, 2008 at 8:39 AM #185509jpinpbParticipantRustico – I can only speak for myself. I have had extremely successful relationships w/men some of whom I am still very good friends with. They have made decisions to not have children. Some have actually, like Dave, had vasectomies. That is their decision and I do not think they are necessarily bad for that. In fact, responsible on their part. On the other hand, since at the time I wanted to have a baby, I knew that was not a relationship that I should be in b/c the person I would want to be with should also want the same thing as far as I wanted, a family.
If I found myself in this situation more than once, then I imagine there may be other women in a similar predicament. I don’t know if it’s b/c of “Generation Me” but my experience is that fewer men are choosing the path of wanting children. It is not a question of whether a man and woman get along, but more a question of finding a man who is inclined to want a family.
That said, I did not want to sacrifice “love” for merely the desire to have a child. In other words, I would not settle to be w/a man purely to have a child. I would like “love” to be in that mix and so if there wasn’t that feeling of love, then some of the men who I met that wanted children were not someone to be w/for that sole reason. Compatibility is also important.
As far as “needed”, I know that is a touchy topic for men. Many want to feel needed and some like to sense their need gives them power, indispensible. But as I said, women are not so helpless nowadays. We want men in our lives for love and personally the men I have been w/were loved and cared for and wanted and appreciated and respected. Need should not be confused with want.
It applies to material objects certainly and many piggs know the difference between buying “things” b/c of want or need, being a consumer or saving b/c the item is just a want not a need.
I say this should apply to relationships. Being wanted has more value than being needed, in that respect, MPO. Want is a desire, decision/choice.
April 12, 2008 at 8:39 AM #185516jpinpbParticipantRustico – I can only speak for myself. I have had extremely successful relationships w/men some of whom I am still very good friends with. They have made decisions to not have children. Some have actually, like Dave, had vasectomies. That is their decision and I do not think they are necessarily bad for that. In fact, responsible on their part. On the other hand, since at the time I wanted to have a baby, I knew that was not a relationship that I should be in b/c the person I would want to be with should also want the same thing as far as I wanted, a family.
If I found myself in this situation more than once, then I imagine there may be other women in a similar predicament. I don’t know if it’s b/c of “Generation Me” but my experience is that fewer men are choosing the path of wanting children. It is not a question of whether a man and woman get along, but more a question of finding a man who is inclined to want a family.
That said, I did not want to sacrifice “love” for merely the desire to have a child. In other words, I would not settle to be w/a man purely to have a child. I would like “love” to be in that mix and so if there wasn’t that feeling of love, then some of the men who I met that wanted children were not someone to be w/for that sole reason. Compatibility is also important.
As far as “needed”, I know that is a touchy topic for men. Many want to feel needed and some like to sense their need gives them power, indispensible. But as I said, women are not so helpless nowadays. We want men in our lives for love and personally the men I have been w/were loved and cared for and wanted and appreciated and respected. Need should not be confused with want.
It applies to material objects certainly and many piggs know the difference between buying “things” b/c of want or need, being a consumer or saving b/c the item is just a want not a need.
I say this should apply to relationships. Being wanted has more value than being needed, in that respect, MPO. Want is a desire, decision/choice.
April 12, 2008 at 8:39 AM #185520jpinpbParticipantRustico – I can only speak for myself. I have had extremely successful relationships w/men some of whom I am still very good friends with. They have made decisions to not have children. Some have actually, like Dave, had vasectomies. That is their decision and I do not think they are necessarily bad for that. In fact, responsible on their part. On the other hand, since at the time I wanted to have a baby, I knew that was not a relationship that I should be in b/c the person I would want to be with should also want the same thing as far as I wanted, a family.
If I found myself in this situation more than once, then I imagine there may be other women in a similar predicament. I don’t know if it’s b/c of “Generation Me” but my experience is that fewer men are choosing the path of wanting children. It is not a question of whether a man and woman get along, but more a question of finding a man who is inclined to want a family.
That said, I did not want to sacrifice “love” for merely the desire to have a child. In other words, I would not settle to be w/a man purely to have a child. I would like “love” to be in that mix and so if there wasn’t that feeling of love, then some of the men who I met that wanted children were not someone to be w/for that sole reason. Compatibility is also important.
As far as “needed”, I know that is a touchy topic for men. Many want to feel needed and some like to sense their need gives them power, indispensible. But as I said, women are not so helpless nowadays. We want men in our lives for love and personally the men I have been w/were loved and cared for and wanted and appreciated and respected. Need should not be confused with want.
It applies to material objects certainly and many piggs know the difference between buying “things” b/c of want or need, being a consumer or saving b/c the item is just a want not a need.
I say this should apply to relationships. Being wanted has more value than being needed, in that respect, MPO. Want is a desire, decision/choice.
April 12, 2008 at 8:51 AM #185458jpinpbParticipantNavydoc – How is “love” being cynical? I have basically said that the real reason men and women are together is for and out of love.
I do not think that women who are w/men for money are happy. I fundamentally honestly and truly believe that money does not buy happiness.
I stripped away all the “reasons” that are claimed. Some men like the Daves of the world or paranoid men overestimate their “need” which they claim is for money and sperm. Although in a loving relationship these would all make the package complete, in reality, in today’s world, women are not so helpless that this is a “need.”
Now, “want” is something entirely different.
As far as a single parent versus two, if both parents are good parents, that is the ideal situation, of course, and I won’t argue or dispute that. Now if one parent is an alcholic or drug addict or physically, mentally, emotionally or psychologically abusive, is this an ideal situation for a child to be raised in just b/c the number of parents is 2? Or would a single parent be better in that type of situation?
Since most men are less inclined to have children, should women who want children but have not met any men who desire that, should they just shrivel up and die or suffer a solitary barren existence? If they are financially able and want children and can provide a loving, selfless life for her child, w/care and nurturing and education and social life w/activities, why would that be a bad thing?
I say that environment is far better than that of a marriage gone bad staying together “for the children” as if the children cannot sense the love is gone and perhaps resentment felt in the home, perhaps anger and unhappiness.
You say: “From my experiences working at inpatient child psych wards, virtually ALL of those kids come from dysfunctional families, the majority single parent.”
Some dysfunctional families can be 2 parents raising a child. Some divorces occur b/c of the aforementioned reasons, alcohol, physical abuse, etc, in which case, I believe divorce is a better alternative, especially for the safety of the child, physically, mentally and emotionally.
You say: “You’re simply much less likely to do drugs, commit a violent crime, drop out of school, etc. if you come from a stable family”
Key is “stable.” Also it is now medically proven that alcoholism is hereditary. I believe the inclination to be an addict is a physical problem. Two children can be raised in the same household environment and one can have the propensity to be an alcoholic or a drug addict, regardless of how healthy a home/family environment is.
I do not believe that genetically women are the problem in wanting and raising children. Their natural tendency is to care and nurture. But your comment regarding “family values” should apply to men of today since a greater percentage are shunning having children. I do not fault a women to make a decision to have a baby if that is her desire.
Back in the day if a woman “accidentally” got pregnant, the noble father would marry her. This has lead to unhappy marriages and dysfunctional children.
Back to my original point. LOVE. If two people love each other and both decide to have a child or children, that is the ideal situation for themselves and the kids.
BUT on the other hand, I also believe that men don’t have one up on women b/c of money and sperm. The Daves of the world can go on to have a childless life. That is apparently accepted as ok. Why would it not be ok if a woman decides to make a conscious decision to have a child on her own. I don’t think this makes her a bad parent at all, in fact, the contrary. Much more devoted.
April 12, 2008 at 8:51 AM #185476jpinpbParticipantNavydoc – How is “love” being cynical? I have basically said that the real reason men and women are together is for and out of love.
I do not think that women who are w/men for money are happy. I fundamentally honestly and truly believe that money does not buy happiness.
I stripped away all the “reasons” that are claimed. Some men like the Daves of the world or paranoid men overestimate their “need” which they claim is for money and sperm. Although in a loving relationship these would all make the package complete, in reality, in today’s world, women are not so helpless that this is a “need.”
Now, “want” is something entirely different.
As far as a single parent versus two, if both parents are good parents, that is the ideal situation, of course, and I won’t argue or dispute that. Now if one parent is an alcholic or drug addict or physically, mentally, emotionally or psychologically abusive, is this an ideal situation for a child to be raised in just b/c the number of parents is 2? Or would a single parent be better in that type of situation?
Since most men are less inclined to have children, should women who want children but have not met any men who desire that, should they just shrivel up and die or suffer a solitary barren existence? If they are financially able and want children and can provide a loving, selfless life for her child, w/care and nurturing and education and social life w/activities, why would that be a bad thing?
I say that environment is far better than that of a marriage gone bad staying together “for the children” as if the children cannot sense the love is gone and perhaps resentment felt in the home, perhaps anger and unhappiness.
You say: “From my experiences working at inpatient child psych wards, virtually ALL of those kids come from dysfunctional families, the majority single parent.”
Some dysfunctional families can be 2 parents raising a child. Some divorces occur b/c of the aforementioned reasons, alcohol, physical abuse, etc, in which case, I believe divorce is a better alternative, especially for the safety of the child, physically, mentally and emotionally.
You say: “You’re simply much less likely to do drugs, commit a violent crime, drop out of school, etc. if you come from a stable family”
Key is “stable.” Also it is now medically proven that alcoholism is hereditary. I believe the inclination to be an addict is a physical problem. Two children can be raised in the same household environment and one can have the propensity to be an alcoholic or a drug addict, regardless of how healthy a home/family environment is.
I do not believe that genetically women are the problem in wanting and raising children. Their natural tendency is to care and nurture. But your comment regarding “family values” should apply to men of today since a greater percentage are shunning having children. I do not fault a women to make a decision to have a baby if that is her desire.
Back in the day if a woman “accidentally” got pregnant, the noble father would marry her. This has lead to unhappy marriages and dysfunctional children.
Back to my original point. LOVE. If two people love each other and both decide to have a child or children, that is the ideal situation for themselves and the kids.
BUT on the other hand, I also believe that men don’t have one up on women b/c of money and sperm. The Daves of the world can go on to have a childless life. That is apparently accepted as ok. Why would it not be ok if a woman decides to make a conscious decision to have a child on her own. I don’t think this makes her a bad parent at all, in fact, the contrary. Much more devoted.
April 12, 2008 at 8:51 AM #185504jpinpbParticipantNavydoc – How is “love” being cynical? I have basically said that the real reason men and women are together is for and out of love.
I do not think that women who are w/men for money are happy. I fundamentally honestly and truly believe that money does not buy happiness.
I stripped away all the “reasons” that are claimed. Some men like the Daves of the world or paranoid men overestimate their “need” which they claim is for money and sperm. Although in a loving relationship these would all make the package complete, in reality, in today’s world, women are not so helpless that this is a “need.”
Now, “want” is something entirely different.
As far as a single parent versus two, if both parents are good parents, that is the ideal situation, of course, and I won’t argue or dispute that. Now if one parent is an alcholic or drug addict or physically, mentally, emotionally or psychologically abusive, is this an ideal situation for a child to be raised in just b/c the number of parents is 2? Or would a single parent be better in that type of situation?
Since most men are less inclined to have children, should women who want children but have not met any men who desire that, should they just shrivel up and die or suffer a solitary barren existence? If they are financially able and want children and can provide a loving, selfless life for her child, w/care and nurturing and education and social life w/activities, why would that be a bad thing?
I say that environment is far better than that of a marriage gone bad staying together “for the children” as if the children cannot sense the love is gone and perhaps resentment felt in the home, perhaps anger and unhappiness.
You say: “From my experiences working at inpatient child psych wards, virtually ALL of those kids come from dysfunctional families, the majority single parent.”
Some dysfunctional families can be 2 parents raising a child. Some divorces occur b/c of the aforementioned reasons, alcohol, physical abuse, etc, in which case, I believe divorce is a better alternative, especially for the safety of the child, physically, mentally and emotionally.
You say: “You’re simply much less likely to do drugs, commit a violent crime, drop out of school, etc. if you come from a stable family”
Key is “stable.” Also it is now medically proven that alcoholism is hereditary. I believe the inclination to be an addict is a physical problem. Two children can be raised in the same household environment and one can have the propensity to be an alcoholic or a drug addict, regardless of how healthy a home/family environment is.
I do not believe that genetically women are the problem in wanting and raising children. Their natural tendency is to care and nurture. But your comment regarding “family values” should apply to men of today since a greater percentage are shunning having children. I do not fault a women to make a decision to have a baby if that is her desire.
Back in the day if a woman “accidentally” got pregnant, the noble father would marry her. This has lead to unhappy marriages and dysfunctional children.
Back to my original point. LOVE. If two people love each other and both decide to have a child or children, that is the ideal situation for themselves and the kids.
BUT on the other hand, I also believe that men don’t have one up on women b/c of money and sperm. The Daves of the world can go on to have a childless life. That is apparently accepted as ok. Why would it not be ok if a woman decides to make a conscious decision to have a child on her own. I don’t think this makes her a bad parent at all, in fact, the contrary. Much more devoted.
April 12, 2008 at 8:51 AM #185511jpinpbParticipantNavydoc – How is “love” being cynical? I have basically said that the real reason men and women are together is for and out of love.
I do not think that women who are w/men for money are happy. I fundamentally honestly and truly believe that money does not buy happiness.
I stripped away all the “reasons” that are claimed. Some men like the Daves of the world or paranoid men overestimate their “need” which they claim is for money and sperm. Although in a loving relationship these would all make the package complete, in reality, in today’s world, women are not so helpless that this is a “need.”
Now, “want” is something entirely different.
As far as a single parent versus two, if both parents are good parents, that is the ideal situation, of course, and I won’t argue or dispute that. Now if one parent is an alcholic or drug addict or physically, mentally, emotionally or psychologically abusive, is this an ideal situation for a child to be raised in just b/c the number of parents is 2? Or would a single parent be better in that type of situation?
Since most men are less inclined to have children, should women who want children but have not met any men who desire that, should they just shrivel up and die or suffer a solitary barren existence? If they are financially able and want children and can provide a loving, selfless life for her child, w/care and nurturing and education and social life w/activities, why would that be a bad thing?
I say that environment is far better than that of a marriage gone bad staying together “for the children” as if the children cannot sense the love is gone and perhaps resentment felt in the home, perhaps anger and unhappiness.
You say: “From my experiences working at inpatient child psych wards, virtually ALL of those kids come from dysfunctional families, the majority single parent.”
Some dysfunctional families can be 2 parents raising a child. Some divorces occur b/c of the aforementioned reasons, alcohol, physical abuse, etc, in which case, I believe divorce is a better alternative, especially for the safety of the child, physically, mentally and emotionally.
You say: “You’re simply much less likely to do drugs, commit a violent crime, drop out of school, etc. if you come from a stable family”
Key is “stable.” Also it is now medically proven that alcoholism is hereditary. I believe the inclination to be an addict is a physical problem. Two children can be raised in the same household environment and one can have the propensity to be an alcoholic or a drug addict, regardless of how healthy a home/family environment is.
I do not believe that genetically women are the problem in wanting and raising children. Their natural tendency is to care and nurture. But your comment regarding “family values” should apply to men of today since a greater percentage are shunning having children. I do not fault a women to make a decision to have a baby if that is her desire.
Back in the day if a woman “accidentally” got pregnant, the noble father would marry her. This has lead to unhappy marriages and dysfunctional children.
Back to my original point. LOVE. If two people love each other and both decide to have a child or children, that is the ideal situation for themselves and the kids.
BUT on the other hand, I also believe that men don’t have one up on women b/c of money and sperm. The Daves of the world can go on to have a childless life. That is apparently accepted as ok. Why would it not be ok if a woman decides to make a conscious decision to have a child on her own. I don’t think this makes her a bad parent at all, in fact, the contrary. Much more devoted.
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