…

[spdrun]

Dirt cheap as compared to the US, as is the case in most of Europe.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=Jazzman]I think I paid about $450 in property tax, so small I can’t remember and can’t be bothered to look it up, but your calculations are way off. Different rates for kama’aina….[/quote]

Jazzman, that’s not what your county is saying on their website. Are you sure the taxes you already paid this year weren’t what we in Cali call a “supplemental bill” (the difference between the previous owner’s bill and yours for FY 11/12 or 2011)? After all, you stated you just purchased it this year and it was new construction. It’s very possible the tax bill you paid was representative of your portion of a fractional interest of the unimproved lot your condo complex now sits on.

Perhaps you haven’t received your full tax bill yet for FY 12/13 or 2013 or it is not yet due.

In any case, property taxes ARE lower on Maui than mainland cities (not sure about HI’s other islands) but this is likely attributable to a much smaller population who use services there and therefore much less infrastructure was needed/built on the island.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=spdrun]Dirt cheap as compared to the US, as is the case in most of Europe.[/quote]

spdrun, I haven’t been to Europe. Are there a lot of septic users outside of cities?

Why do you think property taxes are lower in the EU?

[Jazzman]

[quote=bearishgurl][quote=Jazzman]I think I paid about $450 in property tax, so small I can’t remember and can’t be bothered to look it up, but your calculations are way off. Different rates for kama’aina….[/quote]

Jazzman, that’s not what your county is saying on their website. Are you sure the taxes you already paid this year weren’t what we in Cali call a “supplemental bill” (the difference between the previous owner’s bill and yours for FY 11/12 or 2011)? After all, you stated you just purchased it this year and it was new construction. It’s very possible the tax bill you paid was representative of your portion of a fractional interest of the unimproved lot your condo complex now sits on.

Perhaps you haven’t received your full tax bill yet for FY 12/13 or 2013 or it is not yet due.

In any case, property taxes ARE lower on Maui than mainland cities (not sure about HI’s other islands) but this is likely attributable to a much smaller population who use services there and therefore much less infrastructure was needed/built on the island.[/quote]
As I already pointed out the rate you quoted is for non-residents. I paid for the full year.

[spdrun]

spdrun, I haven’t been to Europe. Are there a lot of septic users outside of cities?

Why do you think property taxes are lower in the EU?

Septic tanks: depends on country and location.
http://www.survivefrance.com/profiles/blogs/fosse-septiques-septic-tanks-in-france

Lower property taxes: because the primary tax burdens are income tax and VAT, and municipalities receive more of that money back from the central government. As it should be in my book.

[Jazzman]

[quote=AN]I don’t know all the areas in France, but looking the maps for those houses, they look like they’re out in the country side. I was expecting Paris or something similar at Inland Empire pricing. How much is property tax in France?

Maui’s beaches are nice, but hardly what I’d call the best beaches in the world. I’d rate Bora Bora, Moorea, Tahiti, Fiji, Maldives, etc heads and shoulders above Maui.[/quote]

Central Paris is very expensive. The suburbs just outside less so. A nice homes in somewhere like Compiegne is about $700-$800k. You need to remember that Europe is not laid out like the US. Rural France is France. There are something like 36,000 villages alone, and that excludes hamlets towns and cities, that crisscross forming a giant network over a largely arable land. So living in rural France is not like living in rural US. You do not need to live in Paris to enjoy a good life style. Southern California doesn’t really have cities, at least in a European sense. It is for the most part a suburban sprawl, so population density are what drive central Paris prices, as well as the sheer beauty of the place of course.

There are two equivalent property taxes in France, but they are small in comparison.

I guess beaches are in the eye of the beholder, and yes places like the Caribbean, Seychelles, other Polynesian islands, spring to mind, but I was really comparing Hawaii’s to CA’s. I think Napili was voted best beach by someone, so I should have used quotes.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=Jazzman] . . . Soon we’re off to France and will be buying a beautiful stone farmhouse. The total tally will be our budget for California. Yep, two homes, in two of the most beautiful regions of the world for the price of one nothing-out-of-the ordinary single family home in southern California.

Here’s what’s on offer in France[/quote]

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/overseas-property/property-32298586.html

Asking price in US $: $582,400
Sq ft: 2034

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/overseas-property/property-20292576.html

Asking price in US $: $275,600
Sq ft: 1039 sf (main house) 273 sf (summer house/kit)

For comparison to US listing measurements, I did not count the sf in the hallways, terrace, garage, workshop and woodstore, as the above listing did.

http://www.guillon-immobilier.com/detail-IJL5135279-maison-lhoumois.html

Asking price in US $: $477,750
Sq ft: no size given but looks tiny in first photo

spdrun, can you translate this listing comment for us?

“Le tout sur 4.4 hectares de terrain en bordure de fôret.”

Does this measurement apply to the lot or the perimeter of the home?

References used:

approx (+/-) current Euro to dollar exchange rate: http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=UTF-8&fr=ytff-yff17&p=exchange+rate+Euro+to+US+dollar

sq meter to sq feet conversion calculator: http://www.metric-conversions.org/area/square-meters-to-square-feet.htm

[quote=Jazzman]Now I love California and the people, so don’t get me wrong here, but they think they’ve got it right, and when it comes to home prices …well, they haven’t! According to a survey reported on NBC tonight, CA is the worst run state in the country. Now I don’t know about that, but I do know value when I see it.[/quote]

Jazzman, you had the opportunity to at least purchase a similar home to the your first link right here in CA for a comparable price (except its wood shingle is no longer insurable in CA). It may not have been hundreds of years old (not sure of the age of the one in your link) but like spdrun posted, there ARE homes like this in the US. The second and third link are a bit unusual. There ARE many stone and rock houses in TX, OK and AR, mostly 1600-1900 sf, which would cost about $180K to $220K today. Many of them are situated either lakefront (with a boat dock) or within blocks of a lake. The vast majority of them are owned as vacation homes by city dwellers (workers) who often move into them when they retire. They are mostly fully furnished down the last detail and almost never rented out.

Jazzman, it appears that you only “shopped” in some of CA’s most prestigious communities (mostly coastal) in which you “expected” to make a “killer deal.”

http://piggington.com/future_housing_purchase_trading_up_when_rates_are_higher#comment-216296

http://piggington.com/future_housing_purchase_trading_up_when_rates_are_higher#comment-216305

http://piggington.com/future_housing_purchase_trading_up_when_rates_are_higher#comment-216314

Even after reviewing these posts, I still feel like you may have “overshopped” and “overthought” your retirement home purchase up and down the state and so ended up talking yourself out of buying in CA for no other reason other than you were “tired” (and also got “distracted” by the “doomsayers” on the MSM).

http://piggington.com/future_housing_purchase_trading_up_when_rates_are_higher#comment-216410

http://piggington.com/future_housing_purchase_trading_up_when_rates_are_higher#comment-216468

Why am I now bringing back up the issue of “overthinking” as it applies to RE purchases? Because I believe it is very possible the OP here has done the same thing while shopping for a home for more than a year (albeit on a much shorter leash than Jazzman due to job constraints and available resources).

I’m unfamiliar with Europe but just trying to make a true apples-to-apples comparison of those listings in France to CA listings in the same price range. Since it doesn’t look like there are any jobs for miles around ANY of those listings, they should be comped to inland rural and semi-rural areas in CA, IMO. I just don’t think CA prices are that bad today for what you get, where the property is located and the fact that CA actually has “potable water” available everywhere and a very good infrastructure in comparison to other states.

When all is said and done, Jazzman will likely have spent $750K – $1M on RE but was “unable” to make a deal on a suitable retirement property for himself and his spouse in CA while diligently shopping between 2010 and 2012. There’s nothing wrong with having two homes, distant and diverse from one another. But I still feel he could have done the same thing in CA (condo near beach plus large Lake Tahoe cabin) or fixer mini-estate outside of Ojai, SLO, Napa or Sonoma (likely larger but as a comparable to listing #1 in France).

Thanks for sharing with us the listings in France, Jazzman. They are very interesting.

[spdrun]

“Le tout sur 4.4 hectares de terrain en bordure de fôret.”

This all (i.e. the house), on 4.4 ha (approx 10 acres) near a forest. 4.4 ha refers to the lot size.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=Jazzman]As I already pointed out the rate you quoted is for non-residents. I paid for the full year.[/quote]

Assuming this is so, then if you end up making your permanent residence in France (as you stated you wanted to do in the post below), you could end up having to pay the “non-resident” tax rate on Maui.

http://piggington.com/future_housing_purchase_trading_up_when_rates_are_higher#comment-216468

[bearishgurl]

[quote=spdrun]”Le tout sur 4.4 hectares de terrain en bordure de fôret.”

This all (i.e. the house), on 4.4 ha (approx 10 acres) near a forest. 4.4 ha refers to the lot size.[/quote]

Thank you, spdrun. Then that explains its high price. It appears to be a very small home with (likely) steep stairs inside with a sidewalk all around it. Very unusual :=0

[Jazzman]

[quote=spdrun]Apart from the ages of the homes, it’s not as if you can’t find similar deals in rural Vermont or some parts northern California/rural Oregon. We’re not talking about Parisian pricing here.

As far as bureaucracy and taxation, France is far from being free of it, rather the opposite. Though the good thing is that there’s a much bigger tradition of lawbreaking and evasion there, so the effects of the bureaucracy tend to be tempered.

Vive l’anarchie![/quote]
The difference though is what you’ve got in those rural areas. For me the beauty lies in the history and culture, and how it has blended into the rural landscape. The Loire is dotted with the most unimaginably beautiful chateaux, Provence is dotted with ancient hilltop villages, rocky landscape, and rural beauty. You simply cannot compare places like Vermont to France. Each region of France has its own culinary traditions, festivals, architecture and so on. There is nothing remotely like it in the US.

Yes, taxes, bureaucracy, and other things are challenges to living there full time. But let’s keep the debate on an even footing. Home prices in France are lower largely as a result of much tighter lending regulations, and home ownership does not have the same emphasis as the US. That has changed more recently, I believe as a result of foreign lenders from places like the UK that have targeted the expat communities, and brought with it the same home buying fever, and greed tendencies. But in spite of that, rural France has not, for the most part seen tripling of values, and therefore remains (as you can see from the examples) relatively cheap.

Now getting to the homes themselves–where I have first hand experience–there is really nothing comparable in the US, and if there were they would be historical monuments. The homes are often solid stone with walls up to two feet thick, and you can’t help but think that “charm” played a big part in their construction, even all those hundreds of years ago. No two homes are alike, but rather reflect regional styles. Normandy thatched cottages, Perigordine towers of Acquitaine, even Valoise homes of Picardie near Paris. They exude character and charm, and have a permanence about them that is both endearing and awe inspiring.

It sometimes isn’t enough to visit these places, which are often away from the tourist routes, since you need to live there for a while to understand them. It is like a fine wine, lost on the uninitiated palate. This is the point missed by many Americans, where instant gratification shapes the mindset.

Now, I’m not French but I recognize my jealousy and don’t fight it. The bottom line is that for the price of one home in California, I can buy two homes in two places that for someone like myself, offer a more enviable life style than suburban soCal. Even if you disagree with my comparisons, you have to ponder whether CA is so expensive due to the life style, or other causes. Since it was the birthplace of many of our current housing woes, you can decide for yourself, as I did, and make your choice, as I did

[spdrun]

I actually agree with you.

Which is why I applied for a passport in a Schengen country (I’m a dual-citizen due to parentage), so I can easily get legal residence in most of the EU (Switzerland after 2014 as well) should I desire to live outside of the US.

I wasn’t comparing Vermont to rural France. I was merely saying that urban/suburban Californian prices shouldn’t be compared to rural France, and that far NorCal or Vermont would be more apt comparisons.

[upwardspiral]

I don’t know Lloyd. The French are assholes.

[Jazzman]

[quote=bearishgurl][quote=Jazzman] . . . Soon we’re off to France and will be buying a beautiful stone farmhouse. The total tally will be our budget for California. Yep, two homes, in two of the most beautiful regions of the world for the price of one nothing-out-of-the ordinary single family home in southern California.

Here’s what’s on offer in France[/quote]

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/overseas-property/property-32298586.html

Asking price in US $: $582,400
Sq ft: 2034

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/overseas-property/property-20292576.html

Asking price in US $: $275,600
Sq ft: 1039 sf (main house) 273 sf (summer house/kit)

For comparison to US listing measurements, I did not count the sf in the hallways, terrace, garage, workshop and woodstore, as the above listing did.

http://www.guillon-immobilier.com/detail-IJL5135279-maison-lhoumois.html

Asking price in US $: $477,750
Sq ft: no size given but looks tiny in first photo

spdrun, can you translate this listing comment for us?

“Le tout sur 4.4 hectares de terrain en bordure de fôret.”

Does this measurement apply to the lot or the perimeter of the home?

References used:

approx (+/-) current Euro to dollar exchange rate: http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=UTF-8&fr=ytff-yff17&p=exchange+rate+Euro+to+US+dollar

sq meter to sq feet conversion calculator: http://www.metric-conversions.org/area/square-meters-to-square-feet.htm

[quote=Jazzman]Now I love California and the people, so don’t get me wrong here, but they think they’ve got it right, and when it comes to home prices …well, they haven’t! According to a survey reported on NBC tonight, CA is the worst run state in the country. Now I don’t know about that, but I do know value when I see it.[/quote]

Jazzman, you had the opportunity to at least purchase a similar home to the your first link right here in CA for a comparable price (except its wood shingle is no longer insurable in CA). It may not have been hundreds of years old (not sure of the age of the one in your link) but like spdrun posted, there ARE homes like this in the US. The second and third link are a bit unusual. There ARE many stone and rock houses in TX, OK and AR, mostly 1600-1900 sf, which would cost about $180K to $220K today. Many of them are situated either lakefront (with a boat dock) or within blocks of a lake. The vast majority of them are owned as vacation homes by city dwellers (workers) who often move into them when they retire. They are mostly fully furnished down the last detail and almost never rented out.

Jazzman, it appears that you only “shopped” in some of CA’s most prestigious communities (mostly coastal) in which you “expected” to make a “killer deal.”

http://piggington.com/future_housing_purchase_trading_up_when_rates_are_higher#comment-216296

http://piggington.com/future_housing_purchase_trading_up_when_rates_are_higher#comment-216305

http://piggington.com/future_housing_purchase_trading_up_when_rates_are_higher#comment-216314

Even after reviewing these posts, I still feel like you may have “overshopped” and “overthought” your retirement home purchase up and down the state and so ended up talking yourself out of buying in CA for no other reason other than you were “tired” (and also got “distracted” by the “doomsayers” on the MSM).

http://piggington.com/future_housing_purchase_trading_up_when_rates_are_higher#comment-216410

http://piggington.com/future_housing_purchase_trading_up_when_rates_are_higher#comment-216468

Why am I now bringing back up the issue of “overthinking” as it applies to RE purchases? Because I believe it is very possible the OP here has done the same thing while shopping for a home for more than a year (albeit on a much shorter leash than Jazzman due to job constraints and available resources).

I’m unfamiliar with Europe but just trying to make a true apples-to-apples comparison of those listings in France to CA listings in the same price range. Since it doesn’t look like there are any jobs for miles around ANY of those listings, they should be comped to inland rural and semi-rural areas in CA, IMO. I just don’t think CA prices are that bad today for what you get, where the property is located and the fact that CA actually has “potable water” available everywhere and a very good infrastructure in comparison to other states.

When all is said and done, Jazzman will likely have spent $750K – $1M on RE but was “unable” to make a deal on a suitable retirement property for himself and his spouse in CA while diligently shopping between 2010 and 2012. There’s nothing wrong with having two homes, distant and diverse from one another. But I still feel he could have done the same thing in CA (condo near beach plus large Lake Tahoe cabin) or fixer mini-estate outside of Ojai, SLO, Napa or Sonoma (likely larger but as a comparable to listing #1 in France).

Thanks for sharing with us the listings in France, Jazzman. They are very interesting.[/quote]
BG, you just can’t compare. Old homes are not sold on a sq ft basis, and you are comparing prices using a devalued dollar so it’s academic. Also, you simply cannot find these kinds of homes in the US, and you really need to go there to understand that. Just look at the pictures! The closest I came to finding similar was Montecito, but there are faux Tudors, or homes reminiscent of turreted chateaux, and are new(er) constructions, probably wooden, and they sell for multiple times the price. The very fact that the owners wanted something that mimics European history and tastes says it all don’t you think? Now, here’s the thing. Many Americans recognize this and buy in Europe, France where ever. The logic goes why pay millions for a Picasso copy, when you can have the original at a fraction of the price.

I grant you, these can seem largely pointless arguments/comparisons when framed in the bigger picture, such as job opportunities, earnings potential, language barriers, home and family ties etc. The point of them is to create an awareness about how you place a value on what is your biggest financial liability, your home. And do you tolerate external factors that create huge problems, because they can be conveniently forgotten with the passage of time. Psychological bubbles, beget economic bubbles and denial of that dooms history to repeat itself.

[UCGal]

BG – I love you to death but I have to wonder why you get so dogged and rude to other posters on this site.

What did Jazzman ever do to you that you basically called him a liar on the property tax thing? And just because you dream of retiring to Tahoe, doesn’t mean his dream of retiring to Europe isn’t equally valid.

Seriously – I’m a fan of the way you dig into any topic… and provide links and details. But I can’t figure out why you went after Jazzman so hard and called him a liar. If he says he paid his taxes – who are you to dispute that?

I get the European home dream. I’ve got that dream myself except in southern Italy. And like spdrun – my family has dual citizenship – so the legalities are easier.

Not sure why you’d not include halls in the square footage for French homes… they’re included in the sf of our homes.

Jazzman – I love that 2nd home with the summer guest house.

[Author]

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