20% Unemployment in CA counties

[CA renter]

[quote=cabal] The main purpose of the bailouts were to defend this country against a threat large enough to be classified as a national security event. I don’t like it either but I agree with the experts that this was a necessary evil to prevent the country from an economic collapse of proportions large enough to seize fortune 500 companies, induce 30% unemployment, crash the stock market, in addition to all the other collateral effects. The tent enclave downtown would morph into whole shantytowns occupying every neighborhood park and crime would certainly skyrocket. [/quote]

This is where you and I will have to agree to disagree. I do not for a moment believe that they avoided calamity. They’ve only postponed it, prolonged it, and spread the damage across a wider swath of our economy. IMHO, the eventual consequences of the bailouts will be much worse than if they had left things alone, or at least if they had avoided rewarding the people who caused the “crisis” in the first place (borrowers, lenders, financial firms, etc.).

Mind you, I have always asserted that they would need to backstop the FDIC, SIPC and PBGC, in addition to increasing infrastructure spending and jobless/training programs. Yes, we would have had a severe downturn, but it would have been quick, and we could have begun working our way out of it in a much healthier way IF we had focused more on productive endeavors…instead of bailing out the liars and thieves.

The world was never going to end just because some banks (even major ones) collapsed. If foreign companies want to buy them, so be it. Foreign entities have purchased and now control much more important entities (IMHO) than banks. I want to see us move away from a reliance on the FIRE sectors, and move back into more productive uses of our country’s capital. We’ve squandered a tremendous opportunity to squash the very entities that have hollowed out our country’s economy and our way of life over the past few decades. I want to see the middle-class return. I want to see decent, living wages for a majority of the population. I want to see a severe reversal of the wealth divide that has destroyed us.

With the existing bailouts, we have rewarded the very people who have damaged us most. THAT is what I am so strongly opposed to.

[4plexowner]

“Specifically, the so called fraudulent money flowed from wall street/banks to naïve buyer to bubble seller. The bubble seller is the ultimate beneficiary of this fraudulent money, yet there is never talk about its morality or legitimacy. Fine, just don’t complain about govt giveaways of our tax dollars. You hold the solution. Simply return the fraudulent money and problem solved.”

“The moral obligation of the seller, of knowing the buyer will lose their life savings is entirely subjective as I previously indicated, based somewhat on your personal values. If someone offers me 4M for my 2M house, I ALWAYS have a choice. I could say yes, where do I sign meaning I want the money and your well being is no concern of mine. I could also say no, you are overpaying and I have some compassion for you even though I don’t know you. ”

These statements demonstrate a lack of understanding of the difference between price and value

When a sale occurs between two parties, they have reached an agreement on price

In most cases there is a disagreement in value or the sale wouldn’t occur – the seller believes the object being sold is worth the sales price or less while the buyer believes the object is worth the sales price or more

Another way of saying this is that price isn’t determined by value – it is determined by the intersection of supply and demand

~

I sold my first property in 2002 because I thought the real estate bubble would burst at any moment

My assessment of value was incorrect at that point in time although the buyer and I agreed on price

Was I a ‘naive seller’ and the buyer took advantage of me?

Should I be looking for a government handout because I didn’t make as much money as I could have?

I made a bundle on that property – does that put me into your ‘evil bubble seller’ category?

The purchaser could have sold that property at any point in the next three years and made a bundle for himself

Let’s say he sold in 2005 – he’s now the ‘bubble seller’ in your eyes – should I still give back my ‘bubble profits’ as you suggest or am I off the hook now?

~

What if the buyer in your $2M – $4M example knows that the city is about to redevelop the entire area – three years later the property is worth $6M – who’s the ‘naive’ one at this point? – the seller who, according to you, took advantage of a naive buyer; or the buyer who made a paper profit of $2M in three years?

[4plexowner]

“Specifically, the so called fraudulent money flowed from wall street/banks to naïve buyer to bubble seller. The bubble seller is the ultimate beneficiary of this fraudulent money, yet there is never talk about its morality or legitimacy. Fine, just don’t complain about govt giveaways of our tax dollars. You hold the solution. Simply return the fraudulent money and problem solved.”

“The moral obligation of the seller, of knowing the buyer will lose their life savings is entirely subjective as I previously indicated, based somewhat on your personal values. If someone offers me 4M for my 2M house, I ALWAYS have a choice. I could say yes, where do I sign meaning I want the money and your well being is no concern of mine. I could also say no, you are overpaying and I have some compassion for you even though I don’t know you. ”

These statements demonstrate a lack of understanding of the difference between price and value

When a sale occurs between two parties, they have reached an agreement on price

In most cases there is a disagreement in value or the sale wouldn’t occur – the seller believes the object being sold is worth the sales price or less while the buyer believes the object is worth the sales price or more

Another way of saying this is that price isn’t determined by value – it is determined by the intersection of supply and demand

~

I sold my first property in 2002 because I thought the real estate bubble would burst at any moment

My assessment of value was incorrect at that point in time although the buyer and I agreed on price

Was I a ‘naive seller’ and the buyer took advantage of me?

Should I be looking for a government handout because I didn’t make as much money as I could have?

I made a bundle on that property – does that put me into your ‘evil bubble seller’ category?

The purchaser could have sold that property at any point in the next three years and made a bundle for himself

Let’s say he sold in 2005 – he’s now the ‘bubble seller’ in your eyes – should I still give back my ‘bubble profits’ as you suggest or am I off the hook now?

~

What if the buyer in your $2M – $4M example knows that the city is about to redevelop the entire area – three years later the property is worth $6M – who’s the ‘naive’ one at this point? – the seller who, according to you, took advantage of a naive buyer; or the buyer who made a paper profit of $2M in three years?

[4plexowner]

“Specifically, the so called fraudulent money flowed from wall street/banks to naïve buyer to bubble seller. The bubble seller is the ultimate beneficiary of this fraudulent money, yet there is never talk about its morality or legitimacy. Fine, just don’t complain about govt giveaways of our tax dollars. You hold the solution. Simply return the fraudulent money and problem solved.”

“The moral obligation of the seller, of knowing the buyer will lose their life savings is entirely subjective as I previously indicated, based somewhat on your personal values. If someone offers me 4M for my 2M house, I ALWAYS have a choice. I could say yes, where do I sign meaning I want the money and your well being is no concern of mine. I could also say no, you are overpaying and I have some compassion for you even though I don’t know you. ”

These statements demonstrate a lack of understanding of the difference between price and value

When a sale occurs between two parties, they have reached an agreement on price

In most cases there is a disagreement in value or the sale wouldn’t occur – the seller believes the object being sold is worth the sales price or less while the buyer believes the object is worth the sales price or more

Another way of saying this is that price isn’t determined by value – it is determined by the intersection of supply and demand

~

I sold my first property in 2002 because I thought the real estate bubble would burst at any moment

My assessment of value was incorrect at that point in time although the buyer and I agreed on price

Was I a ‘naive seller’ and the buyer took advantage of me?

Should I be looking for a government handout because I didn’t make as much money as I could have?

I made a bundle on that property – does that put me into your ‘evil bubble seller’ category?

The purchaser could have sold that property at any point in the next three years and made a bundle for himself

Let’s say he sold in 2005 – he’s now the ‘bubble seller’ in your eyes – should I still give back my ‘bubble profits’ as you suggest or am I off the hook now?

~

What if the buyer in your $2M – $4M example knows that the city is about to redevelop the entire area – three years later the property is worth $6M – who’s the ‘naive’ one at this point? – the seller who, according to you, took advantage of a naive buyer; or the buyer who made a paper profit of $2M in three years?

[4plexowner]

“Specifically, the so called fraudulent money flowed from wall street/banks to naïve buyer to bubble seller. The bubble seller is the ultimate beneficiary of this fraudulent money, yet there is never talk about its morality or legitimacy. Fine, just don’t complain about govt giveaways of our tax dollars. You hold the solution. Simply return the fraudulent money and problem solved.”

“The moral obligation of the seller, of knowing the buyer will lose their life savings is entirely subjective as I previously indicated, based somewhat on your personal values. If someone offers me 4M for my 2M house, I ALWAYS have a choice. I could say yes, where do I sign meaning I want the money and your well being is no concern of mine. I could also say no, you are overpaying and I have some compassion for you even though I don’t know you. ”

These statements demonstrate a lack of understanding of the difference between price and value

When a sale occurs between two parties, they have reached an agreement on price

In most cases there is a disagreement in value or the sale wouldn’t occur – the seller believes the object being sold is worth the sales price or less while the buyer believes the object is worth the sales price or more

Another way of saying this is that price isn’t determined by value – it is determined by the intersection of supply and demand

~

I sold my first property in 2002 because I thought the real estate bubble would burst at any moment

My assessment of value was incorrect at that point in time although the buyer and I agreed on price

Was I a ‘naive seller’ and the buyer took advantage of me?

Should I be looking for a government handout because I didn’t make as much money as I could have?

I made a bundle on that property – does that put me into your ‘evil bubble seller’ category?

The purchaser could have sold that property at any point in the next three years and made a bundle for himself

Let’s say he sold in 2005 – he’s now the ‘bubble seller’ in your eyes – should I still give back my ‘bubble profits’ as you suggest or am I off the hook now?

~

What if the buyer in your $2M – $4M example knows that the city is about to redevelop the entire area – three years later the property is worth $6M – who’s the ‘naive’ one at this point? – the seller who, according to you, took advantage of a naive buyer; or the buyer who made a paper profit of $2M in three years?

[4plexowner]

“Specifically, the so called fraudulent money flowed from wall street/banks to naïve buyer to bubble seller. The bubble seller is the ultimate beneficiary of this fraudulent money, yet there is never talk about its morality or legitimacy. Fine, just don’t complain about govt giveaways of our tax dollars. You hold the solution. Simply return the fraudulent money and problem solved.”

“The moral obligation of the seller, of knowing the buyer will lose their life savings is entirely subjective as I previously indicated, based somewhat on your personal values. If someone offers me 4M for my 2M house, I ALWAYS have a choice. I could say yes, where do I sign meaning I want the money and your well being is no concern of mine. I could also say no, you are overpaying and I have some compassion for you even though I don’t know you. ”

These statements demonstrate a lack of understanding of the difference between price and value

When a sale occurs between two parties, they have reached an agreement on price

In most cases there is a disagreement in value or the sale wouldn’t occur – the seller believes the object being sold is worth the sales price or less while the buyer believes the object is worth the sales price or more

Another way of saying this is that price isn’t determined by value – it is determined by the intersection of supply and demand

~

I sold my first property in 2002 because I thought the real estate bubble would burst at any moment

My assessment of value was incorrect at that point in time although the buyer and I agreed on price

Was I a ‘naive seller’ and the buyer took advantage of me?

Should I be looking for a government handout because I didn’t make as much money as I could have?

I made a bundle on that property – does that put me into your ‘evil bubble seller’ category?

The purchaser could have sold that property at any point in the next three years and made a bundle for himself

Let’s say he sold in 2005 – he’s now the ‘bubble seller’ in your eyes – should I still give back my ‘bubble profits’ as you suggest or am I off the hook now?

~

What if the buyer in your $2M – $4M example knows that the city is about to redevelop the entire area – three years later the property is worth $6M – who’s the ‘naive’ one at this point? – the seller who, according to you, took advantage of a naive buyer; or the buyer who made a paper profit of $2M in three years?

[4plexowner]

“The main purpose of the bailouts were to defend this country against a threat large enough to be classified as a national security event.”

No, the main purpose of the bailouts was to transfer huge sums of money to the political and financial elite

The only other thing accomplished by the bailouts is summed up very nicely by CA renter – ie, we have postponed the inevitable and made it far worse than it would have been otherwise

The real threat is that this country has been taken over by a small group of people who have no morals or compassion for their fellow man

[4plexowner]

“The main purpose of the bailouts were to defend this country against a threat large enough to be classified as a national security event.”

No, the main purpose of the bailouts was to transfer huge sums of money to the political and financial elite

The only other thing accomplished by the bailouts is summed up very nicely by CA renter – ie, we have postponed the inevitable and made it far worse than it would have been otherwise

The real threat is that this country has been taken over by a small group of people who have no morals or compassion for their fellow man

[4plexowner]

“The main purpose of the bailouts were to defend this country against a threat large enough to be classified as a national security event.”

No, the main purpose of the bailouts was to transfer huge sums of money to the political and financial elite

The only other thing accomplished by the bailouts is summed up very nicely by CA renter – ie, we have postponed the inevitable and made it far worse than it would have been otherwise

The real threat is that this country has been taken over by a small group of people who have no morals or compassion for their fellow man

[4plexowner]

“The main purpose of the bailouts were to defend this country against a threat large enough to be classified as a national security event.”

No, the main purpose of the bailouts was to transfer huge sums of money to the political and financial elite

The only other thing accomplished by the bailouts is summed up very nicely by CA renter – ie, we have postponed the inevitable and made it far worse than it would have been otherwise

The real threat is that this country has been taken over by a small group of people who have no morals or compassion for their fellow man

[4plexowner]

“The main purpose of the bailouts were to defend this country against a threat large enough to be classified as a national security event.”

No, the main purpose of the bailouts was to transfer huge sums of money to the political and financial elite

The only other thing accomplished by the bailouts is summed up very nicely by CA renter – ie, we have postponed the inevitable and made it far worse than it would have been otherwise

The real threat is that this country has been taken over by a small group of people who have no morals or compassion for their fellow man

[Arraya]

[quote=CA renter]instead of bailing out the liars and thieves..[/quote]

Well our Treasury secretary could be indicted six way to sunday as well as the last one. So what do you expect. Goldman Sachs was shorting MBSs in a back room while selling them AAA out the front door. At this point Bernake has a rap sheet as well.

http://www.alternet.org/economy/146026/the_video_that_will_put_geithner_behind_bars_
Anton R. Valukas–the examiner who wrote the 2,200 page investigative-report which was released on Thursday– has provided plenty of information detailing Lehman’s “materially misleading” accounting and “actionable balance sheet manipulation.”

In other words, they cooked the books.

Eves Smith at Naked Capitalism sums up what was going on like this:

“Quite a few observers… have been stunned and frustrated at the refusal to investigate what was almost certain accounting fraud at Lehman. ….The unraveling isn’t merely implicating Fuld (Lehman CEO) and his recent succession of CFOs, or its accounting firm, Ernst & Young, as might be expected. It also emerges that the NY Fed, and thus Timothy Geithner, were at a minimum massively derelict in the performance of their duties, and may well be culpable in aiding and abetting Lehman in accounting fraud and Sarbox violations….

We need to demand an immediate release of the e-mails, phone records, and meeting notes from the NY Fed and key Lehman principals regarding the NY Fed’s review of Lehman’s solvency. If, as things appear now, Lehman was allowed by the Fed’s inaction to remain in business, when the Fed should have insisted on a wind-down ….. at a minimum, the NY Fed helped perpetuate a fraud on investors and counterparties.

This pattern further suggests the Fed, which by its charter is tasked to promote the safety and soundness of the banking system, instead, via its collusion with Lehman management, operated to protect particular actors to the detriment of the public at large.

And most important, it says that the NY Fed, and likely Geithner himself, undermined, perhaps even violated, laws designed to protect investors and markets. If so, he is not fit to be Treasury secretary or hold any office related to financial supervision and should resign immediately. (Naked Capitalism)

Repeat: “Accounting fraud”, “collusion”, “aiding and abetting.” These are serious charges by a usually restrained blogger.

And this is from Zero Hedge:

“Lehman has become merely the latest example of all that is broken with today’s crony capitalist system…. The evident conclusion is that the core driver of modern capitalist society is fraud at its very core, and nothing short of a massive revolutionary overhaul of the political system, which is the number one defender .. of very lucrative bribes and kickbacks originating from the same rotten Wall Street that (is) nothing but a sham filled with toxic assets” Zero Hedge

[Arraya]

[quote=CA renter]instead of bailing out the liars and thieves..[/quote]

Well our Treasury secretary could be indicted six way to sunday as well as the last one. So what do you expect. Goldman Sachs was shorting MBSs in a back room while selling them AAA out the front door. At this point Bernake has a rap sheet as well.

http://www.alternet.org/economy/146026/the_video_that_will_put_geithner_behind_bars_
Anton R. Valukas–the examiner who wrote the 2,200 page investigative-report which was released on Thursday– has provided plenty of information detailing Lehman’s “materially misleading” accounting and “actionable balance sheet manipulation.”

In other words, they cooked the books.

Eves Smith at Naked Capitalism sums up what was going on like this:

“Quite a few observers… have been stunned and frustrated at the refusal to investigate what was almost certain accounting fraud at Lehman. ….The unraveling isn’t merely implicating Fuld (Lehman CEO) and his recent succession of CFOs, or its accounting firm, Ernst & Young, as might be expected. It also emerges that the NY Fed, and thus Timothy Geithner, were at a minimum massively derelict in the performance of their duties, and may well be culpable in aiding and abetting Lehman in accounting fraud and Sarbox violations….

We need to demand an immediate release of the e-mails, phone records, and meeting notes from the NY Fed and key Lehman principals regarding the NY Fed’s review of Lehman’s solvency. If, as things appear now, Lehman was allowed by the Fed’s inaction to remain in business, when the Fed should have insisted on a wind-down ….. at a minimum, the NY Fed helped perpetuate a fraud on investors and counterparties.

This pattern further suggests the Fed, which by its charter is tasked to promote the safety and soundness of the banking system, instead, via its collusion with Lehman management, operated to protect particular actors to the detriment of the public at large.

And most important, it says that the NY Fed, and likely Geithner himself, undermined, perhaps even violated, laws designed to protect investors and markets. If so, he is not fit to be Treasury secretary or hold any office related to financial supervision and should resign immediately. (Naked Capitalism)

Repeat: “Accounting fraud”, “collusion”, “aiding and abetting.” These are serious charges by a usually restrained blogger.

And this is from Zero Hedge:

“Lehman has become merely the latest example of all that is broken with today’s crony capitalist system…. The evident conclusion is that the core driver of modern capitalist society is fraud at its very core, and nothing short of a massive revolutionary overhaul of the political system, which is the number one defender .. of very lucrative bribes and kickbacks originating from the same rotten Wall Street that (is) nothing but a sham filled with toxic assets” Zero Hedge

[Arraya]

[quote=CA renter]instead of bailing out the liars and thieves..[/quote]

Well our Treasury secretary could be indicted six way to sunday as well as the last one. So what do you expect. Goldman Sachs was shorting MBSs in a back room while selling them AAA out the front door. At this point Bernake has a rap sheet as well.

http://www.alternet.org/economy/146026/the_video_that_will_put_geithner_behind_bars_
Anton R. Valukas–the examiner who wrote the 2,200 page investigative-report which was released on Thursday– has provided plenty of information detailing Lehman’s “materially misleading” accounting and “actionable balance sheet manipulation.”

In other words, they cooked the books.

Eves Smith at Naked Capitalism sums up what was going on like this:

“Quite a few observers… have been stunned and frustrated at the refusal to investigate what was almost certain accounting fraud at Lehman. ….The unraveling isn’t merely implicating Fuld (Lehman CEO) and his recent succession of CFOs, or its accounting firm, Ernst & Young, as might be expected. It also emerges that the NY Fed, and thus Timothy Geithner, were at a minimum massively derelict in the performance of their duties, and may well be culpable in aiding and abetting Lehman in accounting fraud and Sarbox violations….

We need to demand an immediate release of the e-mails, phone records, and meeting notes from the NY Fed and key Lehman principals regarding the NY Fed’s review of Lehman’s solvency. If, as things appear now, Lehman was allowed by the Fed’s inaction to remain in business, when the Fed should have insisted on a wind-down ….. at a minimum, the NY Fed helped perpetuate a fraud on investors and counterparties.

This pattern further suggests the Fed, which by its charter is tasked to promote the safety and soundness of the banking system, instead, via its collusion with Lehman management, operated to protect particular actors to the detriment of the public at large.

And most important, it says that the NY Fed, and likely Geithner himself, undermined, perhaps even violated, laws designed to protect investors and markets. If so, he is not fit to be Treasury secretary or hold any office related to financial supervision and should resign immediately. (Naked Capitalism)

Repeat: “Accounting fraud”, “collusion”, “aiding and abetting.” These are serious charges by a usually restrained blogger.

And this is from Zero Hedge:

“Lehman has become merely the latest example of all that is broken with today’s crony capitalist system…. The evident conclusion is that the core driver of modern capitalist society is fraud at its very core, and nothing short of a massive revolutionary overhaul of the political system, which is the number one defender .. of very lucrative bribes and kickbacks originating from the same rotten Wall Street that (is) nothing but a sham filled with toxic assets” Zero Hedge

[Arraya]

[quote=CA renter]instead of bailing out the liars and thieves..[/quote]

Well our Treasury secretary could be indicted six way to sunday as well as the last one. So what do you expect. Goldman Sachs was shorting MBSs in a back room while selling them AAA out the front door. At this point Bernake has a rap sheet as well.

http://www.alternet.org/economy/146026/the_video_that_will_put_geithner_behind_bars_
Anton R. Valukas–the examiner who wrote the 2,200 page investigative-report which was released on Thursday– has provided plenty of information detailing Lehman’s “materially misleading” accounting and “actionable balance sheet manipulation.”

In other words, they cooked the books.

Eves Smith at Naked Capitalism sums up what was going on like this:

“Quite a few observers… have been stunned and frustrated at the refusal to investigate what was almost certain accounting fraud at Lehman. ….The unraveling isn’t merely implicating Fuld (Lehman CEO) and his recent succession of CFOs, or its accounting firm, Ernst & Young, as might be expected. It also emerges that the NY Fed, and thus Timothy Geithner, were at a minimum massively derelict in the performance of their duties, and may well be culpable in aiding and abetting Lehman in accounting fraud and Sarbox violations….

We need to demand an immediate release of the e-mails, phone records, and meeting notes from the NY Fed and key Lehman principals regarding the NY Fed’s review of Lehman’s solvency. If, as things appear now, Lehman was allowed by the Fed’s inaction to remain in business, when the Fed should have insisted on a wind-down ….. at a minimum, the NY Fed helped perpetuate a fraud on investors and counterparties.

This pattern further suggests the Fed, which by its charter is tasked to promote the safety and soundness of the banking system, instead, via its collusion with Lehman management, operated to protect particular actors to the detriment of the public at large.

And most important, it says that the NY Fed, and likely Geithner himself, undermined, perhaps even violated, laws designed to protect investors and markets. If so, he is not fit to be Treasury secretary or hold any office related to financial supervision and should resign immediately. (Naked Capitalism)

Repeat: “Accounting fraud”, “collusion”, “aiding and abetting.” These are serious charges by a usually restrained blogger.

And this is from Zero Hedge:

“Lehman has become merely the latest example of all that is broken with today’s crony capitalist system…. The evident conclusion is that the core driver of modern capitalist society is fraud at its very core, and nothing short of a massive revolutionary overhaul of the political system, which is the number one defender .. of very lucrative bribes and kickbacks originating from the same rotten Wall Street that (is) nothing but a sham filled with toxic assets” Zero Hedge

[Author]

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