[quote=zk][quote=CA renter]
ZK, the examples I’ve mentioned were absolutely based on the fact that these parents didn’t want their boys to be “contaminated” by anything remotely feminine. They made it very clear why they didn’t want their sons to sit with girls or, in the case of the infant boy, to wear pastel clothing. They didn’t beat around the bush at all. I just can’t type out the conversations and social history in a post here, for brevity’s sake.
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Later in this post you say I’m wearing a blindfold while you’re able to see things others can’t. If anybody ever told me very clearly that they didn’t want their sons to be contaminated by femininity, I obviously would’ve noticed it. Even if I was wearing a blindfold. But nobody ever has. Nobody I’ve ever known has even hinted at such a thing nor, to my knowledge, even heard of such a thing. If this fear of contamination is so blatant, everybody could see it. How is it that only you and others like you with your special observational powers can see it because others are “blinded by the systemic nature of it,” if it’s so blatant and explicit? You can’t have it both ways. On the one hand, you say you’re sure of the reason because it’s explicit, and on the other, you say that only you can see it because you’re so perceptive of it. Which is it?
[quote=CA renter]
And the segregation I’m talking about happens at a very early age — infancy, in some cases. I’m not talking about teenagers who are segregated by their parents because the parents are worried about rape, etc. At that stage, the kids are already reintegrating themselves because they are going through puberty and want to have sex with one another. The problem is that this is happening after years of brainwashing and segregation that highlight and exacerbate the differences between the genders and result in people objectifying each other because they don’t know how to relate in a healthy and holistic way. Kids should never be segregated in the first place, IMO; not by gender, race, age, religion, etc., because this amplifies the worst in each group, whereas integration balances things out because people can learn from one another and relate with one another in a more natural way.
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I don’t disagree that kids shouldn’t be segregated on purpose. Only to the natural degree that occurs when boys do boy things and girls do girl things. And I do agree that segregation happens more than it used to and more than it should, although I don’t think it happens nearly to the extent that you do. What I disagree with is why it occurs. Your only evidence of why it occurs is stories of people you know, stories where “the ultimate goal in every case is to keep their sons from becoming “feminized.” I’ve been hanging around parents for the last 15+ years. No parent I’ve ever known has even once mentioned such a fear. Why is that? What kind of blindfold would prevent me from hearing them say that? Why have you heard so many stories like that, and I’ve never heard one?
Has anybody else on this forum ever heard of such a thing? If so, has it been more than once?
Also, you never answered this question: Why would boys hanging around girls feminize the boys?
[quote=CA renter]
it is 100% true that my experience with my mother affected how I see the world. She opened up my eyes to the realities of sexism and misogyny at a very early age because she was so blatant about it. Because of this, I see sexism and misogyny when other people don’t because they are blinded by the systemic nature of it.
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The fact that you can look at your childhood, which included this:.
“My own mother told me and my sister all the time that she wished so badly for a son instead of the daughters she got because boys and men were so powerful. Once I got married, she shoved me out of the way to get to my husband whom she insisted on calling “son,” instead of calling him by his name.”
and not see that it’s your perception that is skewed and not “other people’s” is indicative of the lack of your own self-awareness.
[quote=CA renter]
It is so accepted, and so much a part of our culture and society, that they don’t even notice it. I may be walking around with sexism/misogyny glasses that enable me to see sexism in our society, but you’re wearing a blindfold.
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I didn’t call them “sexism/misogyny glasses.” I never mentioned sexism. You’ve just tried to change the entire argument. Sexism and misogyny are not the same thing.
[quote=CA renter]
You seem to think that sexism and misogyny don’t really exist to a large extent.
[/quote]
I never said that. And, it’s not true. I think there is lot of sexism in our society. I’m very much a feminist, because I do think there’s a lot of sexism.
I think there’s some misogyny, maybe even a lot. But certainly nowhere near the amount of misogyny you think there is. And I don’t think gender separation of children is a result of misogyny.
[quote=CA renter]
I can prove you wrong in a single instant. Let’s consider for a moment three to five of the most insulting names you can call a boy. (You can re-read the original post on this thread, for starters.) What do you think those terms might be? Please list them here.
After that, consider the top three to five most insulting terms for females, and list those here.
What patterns do you notice?
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You really think the fact that female insults are sex-specific while male insults are not is “proof” that misogyny exists “to a large extent?” If that’s all the “proof” you need, then it’s no wonder you overestimate it.[/quote]
No, you wouldn’t necessarily have noticed it. Even your argument about “boys’ activities” and “girls’ activities” shows that you don’t see it. Do you honestly think that the orientation of our reproductive organs makes us more inclined to want to shop or get our nails done or play/watch football or go fishing or play golf? Really? What you see as “natural” gender-based behavior is due almost entirely to socialization, and it’s being done by people who (sometimes inadvertently, like you might be doing with your own kids) reinforce gender stereotypes by encouraging their kids to participate in certain types of events and activities while discouraging them from participating in other events and activities.
I’ve seen it as a parent and as a teacher. There have been many occasions where I’ve witnessed a parent or teacher or aide guide a student, or group of students, toward or away from a particular activity based solely on the children’s gender. I’ve seen pink paper literally ripped out of a boy’s hands while doing some artwork because “boys don’t like pink, they like blue.” This happens in big and small ways, all day long, every day. It might seem subtle to you, which is probably why you don’t notice it, but it’s sending a very strong message to these kids and to the adults around them. Other parents, teachers, and students/children notice it and conform to what they are told is the “right” behavior for a particular gender. For the most part, this is not natural behavior; it’s socialized.
Just look at what Target went through recently with their gender/color-coded toys. They were guiding children and adults to the “correct” toys for a child’s gender instead of letting kids pick the toys that they would prefer to play with. And why in the hell do we need pink Legos or pink Nerf guns? There is nothing gender-specific in the original toys, so why market exclusively to one gender? We all know that girls will buy “boy’s” toys, but boys will most definitely not be buying pink Legos and Nerf guns unless they have VERY brave, progressive parents.
As for the insults, the worst insults for BOTH genders tend to be sex/gender-specific. Think about the worst ones for both sexes and write them down, then look for a pattern. See? You might think that you’re capable of noticing obvious examples of sexism/misogyny, but even with this simple example, you’ve missed it entirely.
