[quote=FlyerInHi]
But yes, clean, tidy people are superior.
[/quote]
Do you mean superior in general, or just in the following?:
[quote=FlyerInHi]
Superior in upbringing
[/quote]
Superior in upbringing? So a tidy person who was taught to be tidy and was sexually abused and is now a rapist or a pedophile is superior in upbringing to a person who grew up in a messy house and was taught to treat people right and is now messy but treats people well?
[quote=FlyerInHi]
and personal discipline. [/quote]
So a person who is messy but faithful to his wife and thrifty is inferior in personal discipline to one who is tidy but cheats on his wife and who can’t control his spending?
[quote=FlyerInHi]
I believe that clean people have their lives together more. [/quote]
Well, of course you do. You’re narrow-minded. You can’t see that it’s possible that you’re wrong about that. You start with that conclusion, and you make all your arguments and fit all your observations to match that conclusion. You have such a strong aversion to untidiness that you automatically equate it to a person not having his life together. I know lots of untidy people and lots of tidy people, and I see no correlation between their tidiness and how “together” their lives are. Except in the case of, say, alcoholics or drug addicts who are unable to keep their lives together and become messy because of that. Not the other way around. I don’t know anybody who’s an alcoholic or a bad person because they’re messy.
[quote=FlyerInHi]
Piles of laundry, moldy bathrooms, and messed up lives kinda go together. [/quote]
In your head, they do.
[quote=FlyerInHi]
Not to say that messy people have messed up lives, but people who have messed up lives live in messed-up, messy environments. [/quote]
I believe you did just say that
[quote=FlyerInHi]
I believe that clean people have their lives together more. [/quote]
[quote=FlyerInHi]
Not to say that messy people have messed up lives, but people who have messed up lives live in messed-up, messy environments. [/quote]
People who have messed up lives live in messy environments? Man, you just keep coming up with weirder and weirder stuff. There are plenty of people who have messed up lives who live in immaculate houses.
This is a perfect illustration of the blinders you’re wearing. You see messy and automatically see messed up. You see neat and you automatically see not messed up. How else would you come to the conclusion that people who have messed up lives live in messy environments?
[quote=FlyerInHi]
I would surmise that clean people like your wife would never get into drugs or involved with the wrong crowd simply because they could not bear the messy, dirty environments. [/quote]
You’re starting with the assumption that the “wrong” crowd lives in a messy environment. You start all your arguments with the assumption that untidy=bad=untidy. That’s the problem with your argument. I’m asking you why messy is bad, and your answers are “messy is bad, and therefore people who are messy are inferior” and “bad people are messy and therefore messy is bad.” Can you tell me why messy is bad with an argument that doesn’t already assume that messy is bad?
[quote=FlyerInHi]
Messy people are more happy go lucky and they could more easily be induced into joining “fun” crowds. [/quote]
Really, sometimes you’re so far out in left field I don’t know what angle to come at you from. Being happy-go-lucky and being induced into joining “fun” crowds are bad things? Geez, gramma, take the stick outta your ass.
[quote=FlyerInHi]
Also superior in the sense that cleanliness and tidiness are traits that we value over messiness. The art of being tidy is taught in school, academies. It’s strictly enforced in the military and other environments. [/quote]
The idea that homosexuality is an abomination is taught to billions of people. That doesn’t make it true or a good philosophy. Society comes up with all kinds of bullshit that isn’t good.
[quote=FlyerInHi]
Tidiness is associated with beauty and a pleasant environment. [/quote]
You state this as if it’s a universally-held view. It’s not.
[quote=FlyerInHi]
When you go to Switzerland, you admire the Swiss for their cleanliness.[/quote]
Uh, no I don’t. You do.
[quote=FlyerInHi]
#1. If they were so sure that messiness is normal, then why are they embarrassed to invite people over to a messy house? If one is confident about oneself, just show the house like one normally keeps it. [/quote]
Society does prefer tidiness. That doesn’t mean it’s good. Or even normal. Our society also prefers chewing with our mouths closed, not burping aloud, saying “god bless you” when somebody sneezes, that women wear makeup and shave their legs, and a million other things that aren’t inherently good. Lots of people avoid breaking these rules or are embarrassed when they break them. Not because these things are inherently bad, but because our society deems them bad.
[quote=FlyerInHi]
#2. Messy people do like and appreciate cleanliness but they don’t have the discipline to keep their own houses clean. But when they go somewhere, they expect clean. I’ll illustrate: I’ve traveled and shared hotel rooms with messy people. I’m clean so I don’t need room service everyday (but I will leave appropriate tips anyway). The messy people insist on daily room service (which in my mind is proof that they expect perfection when they don’t have to do it themselves). [/quote]
Perhaps they insisted on the clean, and the tidy just came along with it. That’s how it was for me. When I travel (I should say travelled, it’s different now that I’m married), I didn’t insist on daily room service. But I preferred it so that I didn’t have to clean. I will clean if I have to (I won’t tidy up, though, generally). I’m messy, but I’m not dirty. I don’t like cleaning, but I do it because I insist on clean. If somebody will do it for me, perfect.
[quote=FlyerInHi]
Also, in a developing country, the messy people complain when a hotel or restaurant is not up to their American expectations. They fail to consider the price to value ratio. And they are fussy about where to stay and eat. [/quote]
There are lots of aspects of a hotel or restaurant that might not be up to their expectations. I think you’re assuming that tidiness ranks high among them for your messy friends. I think there’s a good chance that’s an incorrect assumption. Cleanliness is a different matter.
[quote=FlyerInHi]
Maybe I’m conflating messy with dirty, but I do think the 2 go hand in hand (not always, but usually). [/quote]
If you want to debate the merits of cleanliness, that’s an entirely different subject. I think maybe you are conflating messy with dirty.
[quote=FlyerInHi]
I’m not fussy [/quote]
Somehow I doubt that. Basically everything you write screams fussy.
[quote=FlyerInHi]
…but I do observe and judge. [/quote]
I don’t doubt that at all.
[quote=FlyerInHi]
I was recently looking at investment properties with and friend and his gf. It was a lower-middle neighborhood. The gf is a messy person, but she commented about the messy neighborhood which she didn’t like… blah, blah, blah. I wanted to say “yeah, you should be talking. this is an investment for god’s sake. you get what you pay for!” [/quote]
I think your experiences with messy people are colored by your pre-existing bias. They don’t jibe with anything I’ve experienced or seen. My experience is that messy people aren’t bothered by a mess. And that’s why they don’t bother to tidy up. You seem to insist that messy people only don’t tidy up because they have poor habits. And then you say “they have poor habits because they don’t tidy up.” Because you are so certain that untidiness is absolutely, unarguably a bad thing, you then automatically assume that anybody who is messy is inferior. Again, you’re starting with untidy=bad=untidy. Try starting fresh. With an open, broad mind. And without assuming that untidy=bad=untidy. And without using societal expectations as a starting point. And then tell me why you think untidy is bad. What problems does it cause besides discomfort to fussy people?
I have a pet peeve. I am very bothered when people chew with their mouths open and eat loudly. Here’s the difference between me and you, Brian: I know that this is my problem. There’s nothing wrong with chewing with one’s mouth open. Society frowns on it. But there’s nothing inherently bad about it. I know this, and I accept this. I don’t judge people for chewing with their mouths open. I’m kind of disgusted by it, but I accept that that’s my problem, not theirs.
So, what it really comes down to is, is messy a bad thing for humans? You have presented no evidence that it is. All your conclusions come from the starting point of untidy=bad=untidy or societal expectations.
You’re like a person who thinks he’s superior because he’s smart. His IQ is higher than most people’s so he thinks he’s better than them. He’s not. He’s not even necessarily smarter than most people. He’s only smarter in the narrow range of intelligence that IQ tests measure. Maybe he’s retarded in other areas, such as emotional intelligence or common sense.
In any case, a person’s value shouldn’t be measured by their intelligence, let alone their their tidiness or lack thereof.
Same with a tidy person. Maybe he’s tidy, but that doesn’t make him superior. It doesn’t even make him superior in discipline and personal habits. Maybe he cheats on his wife or can’t control his spending or doesn’t change the oil in his car. An untidy person has more stuff lying around his house and his bed isn’t made. What damage does that cause? What problems does that cause? Why are you judging him for that?
Having as strong an aversion to untidiness as you do is ok. I think it’s a bit weird, but nothing to judge your character on. Judging other people as inferior because of untidiness is, I think, a fairly major personal flaw that you don’t even understand that you have. I’ve always kind of admired that you never get rattled no matter what people say about you. But now I wonder if that doesn’t go beyond confidence and serenity to an inability to understand that you actually do have flaws and that those people might be right.
You are narrow-minded because you can’t see past your own opinion that untidiness is a bad thing and because you can’t see that untidiness is not something to judge people by. You see untidiness with blinders on. You see untidiness and you can’t imagine that untidiness fits in with a normal, healthy life. You can’t see that, not because untidiness is an important and bad thing (which is your view), but because you’re narrow-minded and can’t see past your own view.
