[quote=carli][quote=no_such_reality][quote=FlyerInHi]
Academic competition is like competing for sports. You get grades and degrees, like trophies or sports stats. Bragging rights and glory. Why not, if you can? BTW, sports is also a lot more competitive than in the past.
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For 99.99%, they’ll be just as fine with a regular college degree. They’ll get in. Sports highlights my point. The kids are starting to have to commit like they’re going to train for the Olympics to just play highschool sports.
Texas A&M has just as many Fortune 100 CEOs as Harvard. It also has any average GPA 3.5, SAT scores of 1800 and a 71% admission rate.
The branding mantra of fighting to get into Ivy or ‘top tier’ is the big lie, just like the lie of sports.[/quote]
I completely agree with this. For many kids these days, high school is rigorous and competitive enough without striving for admission to a top tier school. Unless admission comes as a natural byproduct of the kid’s skills and accomplishments (even then, it’s like winning the lottery), why add unrealistic pressure to get there? Kids should know that their future success is not dependent on a degree from one of these schools. Not only is it not dependent, their future success will be unaffected by their choice of a top tier vs. middle tier school. It is affected by many other factors, such as drive and career track record, but not where the degree comes from.
FIH, if you’re still unconvinced, try reading Frank Bruni’s book, “Where You Go is Not Who You’ll Be” about this very topic.[/quote]I looked up the book on Amazon just now and glanced over the reviews and agree that HS students shouldn’t endeavor to apply to expensive private colleges (incl Ivies), especially those who only admit 5-7% of freshman applicants. Unless their families are VERY well-heeled to have saved a substantial college fund for them or they have a reliable, iron-clad benefactor for the long haul, it’s not worth taking out a ridiculous sum of student debt (over $100K, which will take them decades to pay off) for a college freshman straight out of HS to attend a “name-brand” school. I feel the expensive private schools often entice many freshman applicants whom they decide to admit with “full ride” scholarships for their freshman year only, leaving them footing the HUGE tuition bills in the following years after they have already accepted their admission offers, matriculated into the student body and settled in. This puts these students (who can’t afford to continue there without copious amounts of financial aid) in the position of having to leave the institution after freshman year and spend the next 6+ months (while NOT a student or while a JC/CC student living at home) applying to public universities that they and their families can actually afford IF they shun student loans (as 99% of them should, IMO). In CA, these private-school “financial castoffs” won’t likely be able to be admitted to any CA public university as a sophomore and will be told to finish up their GE’s at a CC and reapply as a transferring-in junior (spend at least a year at CC).
Folks, this is why it is SO IMPORTANT to get your HS senior on board to committing to the RIGHT university for them (public if cost for 4 years is an issue) which they can reasonably finish their degree program and graduate from! It is way harder to get admitted to a public university in CA as a transferring in junior and next to impossible to transfer in as a sophomore or senior. Once your HS senior enrolls in any college (even CC), it is a different ballgame than HS and their HS GPA will most likely go down, making them less desirable to any 4-year university as a transfer student. It’s better to use any trick in the book, by hook or crook, whatever it takes, to get accepted to university as a freshman. Once in and matriculating, performing above the level of academic probation and satisfactorily progressing in their degree program (ie, declared a major upon applying and following their 4-year plan religiously) as well as NOT requesting financial aid from the university itself, then they get to stay. At that point, it doesn’t matter how great the credentials are of the thousands of (later) HS and CC applicants to that particular campus who are ready, willing and able to take a matriculating student’s seat. The vast majority will be turned down for admission due to impaction.
Parents and their HS student need to decide together where their student can realistically afford to attend and successfully finish a degree program while the student is still a HS junior. By the time their senior year rolls around, the deadline for admission as a freshman at a CA public university (11/30) is fast approaching and they should have already visited the campuses of their interest during the summer, while the student had more time to do so.
Fortunately, me and my kid’s other parent (often with kids in tow) have traveled extensively by road all over the state (I attended elem school in Alameda County and my kid’s dad has a few relatives in Alameda and Santa Clara Counties) and so we already knew what the various lifestyles and typical weather and traffic were like in other CA locales to be able to explain this to our kids (who were born and raised in SD Co). My kids were admitted into their respective CSU campuses with HS GPA’s of just 2.9 to 3.3 and SAT scores of 980 to 1380 (not counting essay portion). BUT, instead of buckling down and studying hard in the many AP classes offered to them in HS (they only successfully passed one AP exam each) they spent their MS and HS years on stage touring HS’s throughout SD County and the entire state (with several National competitions in other states) nearly year-round in show choir after studying dance since the age of 3-6. My youngest kid did NOT have anywhere near the avg GPA OR SAT score of an average out-of-area freshman admitted to the campus in which they accepted their admission offer. (I was shocked when I found out they were admitted, albeit in “late rolling admissions”). However, they DID have other things going for them that this campus had been trying to recruit.
My kids are mostly “city people” who are heavily gregarious to the point of being “social animals.” That’s how their dad is (more than me :=0). In addition, they are self-promoting “relationship builders” and “masters of the `selfie'” . . . lol. They are the type of kids who do best at a large urban campus with a Greek presence and plenty of opportunities for on and off-campus assimilation and employment.
My kid(s) are successful and self-supporting (in a more expensive locale than SD County) and I believe my youngest will be as well, as soon as they are able to obtain an internship in their field and graduate with a job offer in hand, using connections they made while in college as a springboard to the “real world.”
I’m not so sure that a college graduate’s name of institution or GPA matters much in non-stem careers. I think what DOES matter is making connections helpful to getting your foot in the door at your first job in your field while in college and being able to “properly handle by yourself” meetings with important connections set up FOR you by academic advisors or relatives. I think that being able to think on your feet, ability to “talk it until you walk it” as well as grooming, dress and demeanor is just as important if not moreso when it comes to landing your first FT job out of college.
For example, when you look at all the notable journalists who graduated from SFSU’s “cinema” and “journalism” depts (nka the Dept of Film, Television and New Media Production), you will see dozens of recognizable names on the list:
Several programs offered by CSU campuses (as well as ROI by campus) have been rated higher than UC campuses (excepting Cal) by Forbes and US Newsweek in the past decade which boast of hundreds of notable alumni in entertainment and politics as well as ALL employment fields:
The CSU is definitely a “better fit” for some students than the UC in different ways. A bachelor degree from a CSU is by no means “inferior” to a UC degree (of like kind and/or in the same general field) to an employer. The endless striving among CA parents attempting to ensure their MS/HS student qualifies for at least UC admission has just turned out to be a lot of effort and strife for naught as we have learned from the recent state auditor’s report showing that since Fall 2011, the UC admitted non-residents with lower creds than CA residents … for the sole purpose of getting their huge tuition premiums for their coffers.
If your student attends a large, CA flagship U and graduates 4 years later with a 3.5 or higher GPA, yet meets few people in college, doesn’t hold a job and/or internship while in college and generally keeps to themselves on campus, I don’t see how they are going to be able to easily get out there and compete with all their “social-animal brethren” in the “real world” for jobs in their field. That is, if the job they trained for is NOT a job typically performed in solitude. (Carli, I’m not saying this describes your soon-to-be graduate.) I had a kid who declared a social work major at SFSU upon acceptance but it was terribly impacted to the point of there being little chance to get admitted into the program so they decided early on (freshman year) to change their major to business which worked out great for them.