[Shadowfax]

[quote=bubba99]If OBL is dead, any terrorist actions they had planned may continue on their original timelines. If he is alive, all planned actions must be cancelled or executed immediately – before we can get the intel out of OBL.

But if we have him, and have lied about him being alive, everything we get is actionable. If we did capture him, it is in the national interest to make the world think he is dead.[/quote]

While reeking of some Hollywood spy thriller, I actually think this would be pretty ingenious. Make the world think he’s dead, create a bunch of top secret film footage to “paper” the file, and then pump him full of high tech chemicals to make him spill (traditional torture probably wouldn’t produce many results, not that I am a fan of physical torture).

I have no idea if the chemicals exist, but it seems a more humane and effective way of getting the info we want. I can waive my usual respect for civil liberties here with a clear conscience given the person involved.

[Shadowfax]

[quote=bubba99]If OBL is dead, any terrorist actions they had planned may continue on their original timelines. If he is alive, all planned actions must be cancelled or executed immediately – before we can get the intel out of OBL.

But if we have him, and have lied about him being alive, everything we get is actionable. If we did capture him, it is in the national interest to make the world think he is dead.[/quote]

While reeking of some Hollywood spy thriller, I actually think this would be pretty ingenious. Make the world think he’s dead, create a bunch of top secret film footage to “paper” the file, and then pump him full of high tech chemicals to make him spill (traditional torture probably wouldn’t produce many results, not that I am a fan of physical torture).

I have no idea if the chemicals exist, but it seems a more humane and effective way of getting the info we want. I can waive my usual respect for civil liberties here with a clear conscience given the person involved.

[Shadowfax]

Well said.

[Shadowfax]

Well said.

[Shadowfax]

Well said.

[Shadowfax]

Well said.

[Shadowfax]

Well said.

[Shadowfax]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]You Leftists do so hate facts, doncha?

Given that 9/11 happened on 9/11/2001, there weren’t any further terrorist attacks on US soil during the remainder of Bush’s terms, either. I’m sure that the math escapes you, but that means Bush actually accrued more time than Obama without incident.
[/quote]

It’s self-evident that this success was based on intelligence that has been built upon and efforts that have been underway for years. Obama was lucky to have the oppotunity to act on it. He should get credit for having the cojones to give the order.

For the record, several unsuccessful terrorist attacks have taken place in the US since Obama’s presidency. Many others are documented that occured in countries other than the US:

2009
Feb. 9, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills four American soldiers and their Iraqi translator near a police checkpoint.
April 10, Iraq: a suicide attack kills five American soldiers and two Iraqi policemen.
June 1, Little Rock, Arkansas: Abdulhakim Muhammed, a Muslim convert from Memphis, Tennessee, is charged with shooting two soldiers outside a military recruiting center. One is killed and the other is wounded. In a January 2010 letter to the judge hearing his case, Muhammed asked to change his plea from not guilty to guilty, claimed ties to al-Qaeda, and called the shooting a jihadi attack “to fight those who wage war on Islam and Muslims.”
Dec. 25: A Nigerian man on a flight from Amsterdam to Detroit attempted to ignite an explosive device hidden in his underwear. The explosive device that failed to detonate was a mixture of powder and liquid that did not alert security personnel in the airport. The alleged bomber, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, told officials later that he was directed by the terrorist group Al Qaeda. The suspect was already on the government’s watch list when he attempted the bombing; his father, a respected Nigerian banker, had told the U.S. government that he was worried about his son’s increased extremism.
Dec. 30, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills eight Americans civilians, seven of them CIA agents, at a base in Afghanistan. It’s the deadliest attack on the agency since 9/11. The attacker is reportedly a double agent from Jordan who was acting on behalf of al-Qaeda.
2010
May 1, New York City: a car bomb is discovered in Times Square, New York City after smoke is seen coming from a vehicle. The bomb was ignited, but failed to detonate and was disarmed before it could cause any harm. Times Square was evacuated as a safety precaution. Faisal Shahzad pleads guilty to placing the bomb as well as 10 terrorism and weapons charges.
May 10, Jacksonville, Florida: a pipe bomb explodes while approximately 60 Muslims are praying in the mosque. The attack causes no injuries.
Oct. 29: two packages are found on separate cargo planes. Each package contains a bomb consisting of 300 to 400 grams (11-14 oz) of plastic explosives and a detonating mechanism. The bombs are discovered as a result of intelligence received from Saudi Arabia’s security chief. The packages, bound from Yemen to the United States, are discovered at en route stop-overs, one in England and one in Dubai in the United Arab Emirates.
2011
Jan. 17, Spokane, Washington: a pipe bomb is discovered along the route of the Martin Luther King, Jr. memorial march. The bomb, a “viable device” set up to spray marchers with shrapnel and to cause multiple casualties, is defused without any injuries.
See also U.S.-Designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations; Suspected al-Qaeda Terrorist Acts.

Read more: Terrorist Attacks in the U.S. or Against Americans — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001454.html#ixzz1LGuImRM0

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001454.html

[Shadowfax]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]You Leftists do so hate facts, doncha?

Given that 9/11 happened on 9/11/2001, there weren’t any further terrorist attacks on US soil during the remainder of Bush’s terms, either. I’m sure that the math escapes you, but that means Bush actually accrued more time than Obama without incident.
[/quote]

It’s self-evident that this success was based on intelligence that has been built upon and efforts that have been underway for years. Obama was lucky to have the oppotunity to act on it. He should get credit for having the cojones to give the order.

For the record, several unsuccessful terrorist attacks have taken place in the US since Obama’s presidency. Many others are documented that occured in countries other than the US:

2009
Feb. 9, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills four American soldiers and their Iraqi translator near a police checkpoint.
April 10, Iraq: a suicide attack kills five American soldiers and two Iraqi policemen.
June 1, Little Rock, Arkansas: Abdulhakim Muhammed, a Muslim convert from Memphis, Tennessee, is charged with shooting two soldiers outside a military recruiting center. One is killed and the other is wounded. In a January 2010 letter to the judge hearing his case, Muhammed asked to change his plea from not guilty to guilty, claimed ties to al-Qaeda, and called the shooting a jihadi attack “to fight those who wage war on Islam and Muslims.”
Dec. 25: A Nigerian man on a flight from Amsterdam to Detroit attempted to ignite an explosive device hidden in his underwear. The explosive device that failed to detonate was a mixture of powder and liquid that did not alert security personnel in the airport. The alleged bomber, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, told officials later that he was directed by the terrorist group Al Qaeda. The suspect was already on the government’s watch list when he attempted the bombing; his father, a respected Nigerian banker, had told the U.S. government that he was worried about his son’s increased extremism.
Dec. 30, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills eight Americans civilians, seven of them CIA agents, at a base in Afghanistan. It’s the deadliest attack on the agency since 9/11. The attacker is reportedly a double agent from Jordan who was acting on behalf of al-Qaeda.
2010
May 1, New York City: a car bomb is discovered in Times Square, New York City after smoke is seen coming from a vehicle. The bomb was ignited, but failed to detonate and was disarmed before it could cause any harm. Times Square was evacuated as a safety precaution. Faisal Shahzad pleads guilty to placing the bomb as well as 10 terrorism and weapons charges.
May 10, Jacksonville, Florida: a pipe bomb explodes while approximately 60 Muslims are praying in the mosque. The attack causes no injuries.
Oct. 29: two packages are found on separate cargo planes. Each package contains a bomb consisting of 300 to 400 grams (11-14 oz) of plastic explosives and a detonating mechanism. The bombs are discovered as a result of intelligence received from Saudi Arabia’s security chief. The packages, bound from Yemen to the United States, are discovered at en route stop-overs, one in England and one in Dubai in the United Arab Emirates.
2011
Jan. 17, Spokane, Washington: a pipe bomb is discovered along the route of the Martin Luther King, Jr. memorial march. The bomb, a “viable device” set up to spray marchers with shrapnel and to cause multiple casualties, is defused without any injuries.
See also U.S.-Designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations; Suspected al-Qaeda Terrorist Acts.

Read more: Terrorist Attacks in the U.S. or Against Americans — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001454.html#ixzz1LGuImRM0

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001454.html

[Shadowfax]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]You Leftists do so hate facts, doncha?

Given that 9/11 happened on 9/11/2001, there weren’t any further terrorist attacks on US soil during the remainder of Bush’s terms, either. I’m sure that the math escapes you, but that means Bush actually accrued more time than Obama without incident.
[/quote]

It’s self-evident that this success was based on intelligence that has been built upon and efforts that have been underway for years. Obama was lucky to have the oppotunity to act on it. He should get credit for having the cojones to give the order.

For the record, several unsuccessful terrorist attacks have taken place in the US since Obama’s presidency. Many others are documented that occured in countries other than the US:

2009
Feb. 9, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills four American soldiers and their Iraqi translator near a police checkpoint.
April 10, Iraq: a suicide attack kills five American soldiers and two Iraqi policemen.
June 1, Little Rock, Arkansas: Abdulhakim Muhammed, a Muslim convert from Memphis, Tennessee, is charged with shooting two soldiers outside a military recruiting center. One is killed and the other is wounded. In a January 2010 letter to the judge hearing his case, Muhammed asked to change his plea from not guilty to guilty, claimed ties to al-Qaeda, and called the shooting a jihadi attack “to fight those who wage war on Islam and Muslims.”
Dec. 25: A Nigerian man on a flight from Amsterdam to Detroit attempted to ignite an explosive device hidden in his underwear. The explosive device that failed to detonate was a mixture of powder and liquid that did not alert security personnel in the airport. The alleged bomber, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, told officials later that he was directed by the terrorist group Al Qaeda. The suspect was already on the government’s watch list when he attempted the bombing; his father, a respected Nigerian banker, had told the U.S. government that he was worried about his son’s increased extremism.
Dec. 30, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills eight Americans civilians, seven of them CIA agents, at a base in Afghanistan. It’s the deadliest attack on the agency since 9/11. The attacker is reportedly a double agent from Jordan who was acting on behalf of al-Qaeda.
2010
May 1, New York City: a car bomb is discovered in Times Square, New York City after smoke is seen coming from a vehicle. The bomb was ignited, but failed to detonate and was disarmed before it could cause any harm. Times Square was evacuated as a safety precaution. Faisal Shahzad pleads guilty to placing the bomb as well as 10 terrorism and weapons charges.
May 10, Jacksonville, Florida: a pipe bomb explodes while approximately 60 Muslims are praying in the mosque. The attack causes no injuries.
Oct. 29: two packages are found on separate cargo planes. Each package contains a bomb consisting of 300 to 400 grams (11-14 oz) of plastic explosives and a detonating mechanism. The bombs are discovered as a result of intelligence received from Saudi Arabia’s security chief. The packages, bound from Yemen to the United States, are discovered at en route stop-overs, one in England and one in Dubai in the United Arab Emirates.
2011
Jan. 17, Spokane, Washington: a pipe bomb is discovered along the route of the Martin Luther King, Jr. memorial march. The bomb, a “viable device” set up to spray marchers with shrapnel and to cause multiple casualties, is defused without any injuries.
See also U.S.-Designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations; Suspected al-Qaeda Terrorist Acts.

Read more: Terrorist Attacks in the U.S. or Against Americans — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001454.html#ixzz1LGuImRM0

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001454.html

[Shadowfax]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]You Leftists do so hate facts, doncha?

Given that 9/11 happened on 9/11/2001, there weren’t any further terrorist attacks on US soil during the remainder of Bush’s terms, either. I’m sure that the math escapes you, but that means Bush actually accrued more time than Obama without incident.
[/quote]

It’s self-evident that this success was based on intelligence that has been built upon and efforts that have been underway for years. Obama was lucky to have the oppotunity to act on it. He should get credit for having the cojones to give the order.

For the record, several unsuccessful terrorist attacks have taken place in the US since Obama’s presidency. Many others are documented that occured in countries other than the US:

2009
Feb. 9, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills four American soldiers and their Iraqi translator near a police checkpoint.
April 10, Iraq: a suicide attack kills five American soldiers and two Iraqi policemen.
June 1, Little Rock, Arkansas: Abdulhakim Muhammed, a Muslim convert from Memphis, Tennessee, is charged with shooting two soldiers outside a military recruiting center. One is killed and the other is wounded. In a January 2010 letter to the judge hearing his case, Muhammed asked to change his plea from not guilty to guilty, claimed ties to al-Qaeda, and called the shooting a jihadi attack “to fight those who wage war on Islam and Muslims.”
Dec. 25: A Nigerian man on a flight from Amsterdam to Detroit attempted to ignite an explosive device hidden in his underwear. The explosive device that failed to detonate was a mixture of powder and liquid that did not alert security personnel in the airport. The alleged bomber, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, told officials later that he was directed by the terrorist group Al Qaeda. The suspect was already on the government’s watch list when he attempted the bombing; his father, a respected Nigerian banker, had told the U.S. government that he was worried about his son’s increased extremism.
Dec. 30, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills eight Americans civilians, seven of them CIA agents, at a base in Afghanistan. It’s the deadliest attack on the agency since 9/11. The attacker is reportedly a double agent from Jordan who was acting on behalf of al-Qaeda.
2010
May 1, New York City: a car bomb is discovered in Times Square, New York City after smoke is seen coming from a vehicle. The bomb was ignited, but failed to detonate and was disarmed before it could cause any harm. Times Square was evacuated as a safety precaution. Faisal Shahzad pleads guilty to placing the bomb as well as 10 terrorism and weapons charges.
May 10, Jacksonville, Florida: a pipe bomb explodes while approximately 60 Muslims are praying in the mosque. The attack causes no injuries.
Oct. 29: two packages are found on separate cargo planes. Each package contains a bomb consisting of 300 to 400 grams (11-14 oz) of plastic explosives and a detonating mechanism. The bombs are discovered as a result of intelligence received from Saudi Arabia’s security chief. The packages, bound from Yemen to the United States, are discovered at en route stop-overs, one in England and one in Dubai in the United Arab Emirates.
2011
Jan. 17, Spokane, Washington: a pipe bomb is discovered along the route of the Martin Luther King, Jr. memorial march. The bomb, a “viable device” set up to spray marchers with shrapnel and to cause multiple casualties, is defused without any injuries.
See also U.S.-Designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations; Suspected al-Qaeda Terrorist Acts.

Read more: Terrorist Attacks in the U.S. or Against Americans — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001454.html#ixzz1LGuImRM0

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001454.html

[Shadowfax]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]You Leftists do so hate facts, doncha?

Given that 9/11 happened on 9/11/2001, there weren’t any further terrorist attacks on US soil during the remainder of Bush’s terms, either. I’m sure that the math escapes you, but that means Bush actually accrued more time than Obama without incident.
[/quote]

It’s self-evident that this success was based on intelligence that has been built upon and efforts that have been underway for years. Obama was lucky to have the oppotunity to act on it. He should get credit for having the cojones to give the order.

For the record, several unsuccessful terrorist attacks have taken place in the US since Obama’s presidency. Many others are documented that occured in countries other than the US:

2009
Feb. 9, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills four American soldiers and their Iraqi translator near a police checkpoint.
April 10, Iraq: a suicide attack kills five American soldiers and two Iraqi policemen.
June 1, Little Rock, Arkansas: Abdulhakim Muhammed, a Muslim convert from Memphis, Tennessee, is charged with shooting two soldiers outside a military recruiting center. One is killed and the other is wounded. In a January 2010 letter to the judge hearing his case, Muhammed asked to change his plea from not guilty to guilty, claimed ties to al-Qaeda, and called the shooting a jihadi attack “to fight those who wage war on Islam and Muslims.”
Dec. 25: A Nigerian man on a flight from Amsterdam to Detroit attempted to ignite an explosive device hidden in his underwear. The explosive device that failed to detonate was a mixture of powder and liquid that did not alert security personnel in the airport. The alleged bomber, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, told officials later that he was directed by the terrorist group Al Qaeda. The suspect was already on the government’s watch list when he attempted the bombing; his father, a respected Nigerian banker, had told the U.S. government that he was worried about his son’s increased extremism.
Dec. 30, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills eight Americans civilians, seven of them CIA agents, at a base in Afghanistan. It’s the deadliest attack on the agency since 9/11. The attacker is reportedly a double agent from Jordan who was acting on behalf of al-Qaeda.
2010
May 1, New York City: a car bomb is discovered in Times Square, New York City after smoke is seen coming from a vehicle. The bomb was ignited, but failed to detonate and was disarmed before it could cause any harm. Times Square was evacuated as a safety precaution. Faisal Shahzad pleads guilty to placing the bomb as well as 10 terrorism and weapons charges.
May 10, Jacksonville, Florida: a pipe bomb explodes while approximately 60 Muslims are praying in the mosque. The attack causes no injuries.
Oct. 29: two packages are found on separate cargo planes. Each package contains a bomb consisting of 300 to 400 grams (11-14 oz) of plastic explosives and a detonating mechanism. The bombs are discovered as a result of intelligence received from Saudi Arabia’s security chief. The packages, bound from Yemen to the United States, are discovered at en route stop-overs, one in England and one in Dubai in the United Arab Emirates.
2011
Jan. 17, Spokane, Washington: a pipe bomb is discovered along the route of the Martin Luther King, Jr. memorial march. The bomb, a “viable device” set up to spray marchers with shrapnel and to cause multiple casualties, is defused without any injuries.
See also U.S.-Designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations; Suspected al-Qaeda Terrorist Acts.

Read more: Terrorist Attacks in the U.S. or Against Americans — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001454.html#ixzz1LGuImRM0

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001454.html

[Shadowfax]

I don’t see the salaries being exceptionally high–the problem is the OT, benefits and bonuses. It is odd to see bonuses paid in an industry that isn’t promoting “growth”. That is, you would expect to see a sales person get a bonus for increased (or steady) sales, but what does a prison guard have to increase to get a bonus? Is it for good attendance? Preventing riots or promoting safety?

I maintain that this is not a pleasant job and that the higher than normal compensation is needed for recruitment and retention. From the WSJ article comments:

I worked as a California Corrections Peace Officer for five years. Just enough to be retirement vested. There is no comparing a Harvard Law grad to a Prison Officer. I invite the author to attend the Peace Officer Standards and Training Academy. Then go spend five years working at High Desert State Prison in Susanville CA. Wear 30 pounds of body armor and gear. At about 10% of Post you carry a rifle. Expect two or three mandatory eight hour overtimes shifts a week. An in 64 hour weeks. Mandatory due to Staffing requirements. On a daily basis protect Inmates from other Inmates. Get used to riots, rapings, murders, suicides, and killers who can quote Chapter and Verse what their entitled to. Deal with the criminally mentally ill and a culture of Inmate Entitlements. Expect to have to justify the “Use of Force” on paper and in Interviews every week. OH… The best part is you’ll be the “overpaid brutal indulged scapegoat” for all prison problems in the Press. California gives millions to the private “Prison Law Office” at San Quentin to sue the Dept of Corrections. I had a twenty five years Military career and three years working in the Idaho Prision prior to this. I didn’t plan to leave after five years. But how much feces, urine, and HIV infected blood would you want thrown at you? Let the author “walk the walk” before she judges Correction Officers. P.S. We have not had a Contract in years
Robert Dawson, Boise Idaho

The benefits seem pretty excessive, all the paid time off seems to require those on duty to work more OT! I am curious why all the OT–are people injured and can’t come in? Can’t they have officers “on call” to relieve people who are due to get off duty? I think the OT issue needs to be addressed, since that seems to be where poor planning results in large expenses. If Applebee’s and Fed Ex can mandate breaks and shift changes on a 7 hour basis, why can’t a prison? (kidding, sort of. I guess exceptions can be made for riot lock-downs) I don’t have much sympathy for the working holidays and stuff–seems like that could be addressed too–the new recruits at the bottom of the pay scale or ask for volunteers to work holidays. Jewish or atheist officers could work xmas day. Most industries do it this way, or you just have to tough it out and work anyway.

It’d be interesting to see when the high salaries were implemented–perhaps at a time when they couldn’t find anyone to take those jobs? Utimately, the compensation structure was implemented at some past date and now it has overgrown the tax base. I wouldn’t be surprised if the “top earners” are slated for early retirement so that the budget can be brought back in line. A lot of public institutions use this as a way of cutting their long-time employees who have maxed out the pay scale. Private companies do this all the time (which is why being over 40 is a protected class under CA employment law). Your experienced workers are the first to get axed so they can hire cheaper entry level folks.

I’d like to see teachers paid this much and not prison guards. I guess the teacher’s union(s) didn’t have enought “muscle” to amp up the pay scale. I am usually in support of unions, but this one does seem to have gone far over the line of reasonableness.

[Shadowfax]

I don’t see the salaries being exceptionally high–the problem is the OT, benefits and bonuses. It is odd to see bonuses paid in an industry that isn’t promoting “growth”. That is, you would expect to see a sales person get a bonus for increased (or steady) sales, but what does a prison guard have to increase to get a bonus? Is it for good attendance? Preventing riots or promoting safety?

I maintain that this is not a pleasant job and that the higher than normal compensation is needed for recruitment and retention. From the WSJ article comments:

I worked as a California Corrections Peace Officer for five years. Just enough to be retirement vested. There is no comparing a Harvard Law grad to a Prison Officer. I invite the author to attend the Peace Officer Standards and Training Academy. Then go spend five years working at High Desert State Prison in Susanville CA. Wear 30 pounds of body armor and gear. At about 10% of Post you carry a rifle. Expect two or three mandatory eight hour overtimes shifts a week. An in 64 hour weeks. Mandatory due to Staffing requirements. On a daily basis protect Inmates from other Inmates. Get used to riots, rapings, murders, suicides, and killers who can quote Chapter and Verse what their entitled to. Deal with the criminally mentally ill and a culture of Inmate Entitlements. Expect to have to justify the “Use of Force” on paper and in Interviews every week. OH… The best part is you’ll be the “overpaid brutal indulged scapegoat” for all prison problems in the Press. California gives millions to the private “Prison Law Office” at San Quentin to sue the Dept of Corrections. I had a twenty five years Military career and three years working in the Idaho Prision prior to this. I didn’t plan to leave after five years. But how much feces, urine, and HIV infected blood would you want thrown at you? Let the author “walk the walk” before she judges Correction Officers. P.S. We have not had a Contract in years
Robert Dawson, Boise Idaho

The benefits seem pretty excessive, all the paid time off seems to require those on duty to work more OT! I am curious why all the OT–are people injured and can’t come in? Can’t they have officers “on call” to relieve people who are due to get off duty? I think the OT issue needs to be addressed, since that seems to be where poor planning results in large expenses. If Applebee’s and Fed Ex can mandate breaks and shift changes on a 7 hour basis, why can’t a prison? (kidding, sort of. I guess exceptions can be made for riot lock-downs) I don’t have much sympathy for the working holidays and stuff–seems like that could be addressed too–the new recruits at the bottom of the pay scale or ask for volunteers to work holidays. Jewish or atheist officers could work xmas day. Most industries do it this way, or you just have to tough it out and work anyway.

It’d be interesting to see when the high salaries were implemented–perhaps at a time when they couldn’t find anyone to take those jobs? Utimately, the compensation structure was implemented at some past date and now it has overgrown the tax base. I wouldn’t be surprised if the “top earners” are slated for early retirement so that the budget can be brought back in line. A lot of public institutions use this as a way of cutting their long-time employees who have maxed out the pay scale. Private companies do this all the time (which is why being over 40 is a protected class under CA employment law). Your experienced workers are the first to get axed so they can hire cheaper entry level folks.

I’d like to see teachers paid this much and not prison guards. I guess the teacher’s union(s) didn’t have enought “muscle” to amp up the pay scale. I am usually in support of unions, but this one does seem to have gone far over the line of reasonableness.

[Shadowfax]

I don’t see the salaries being exceptionally high–the problem is the OT, benefits and bonuses. It is odd to see bonuses paid in an industry that isn’t promoting “growth”. That is, you would expect to see a sales person get a bonus for increased (or steady) sales, but what does a prison guard have to increase to get a bonus? Is it for good attendance? Preventing riots or promoting safety?

I maintain that this is not a pleasant job and that the higher than normal compensation is needed for recruitment and retention. From the WSJ article comments:

I worked as a California Corrections Peace Officer for five years. Just enough to be retirement vested. There is no comparing a Harvard Law grad to a Prison Officer. I invite the author to attend the Peace Officer Standards and Training Academy. Then go spend five years working at High Desert State Prison in Susanville CA. Wear 30 pounds of body armor and gear. At about 10% of Post you carry a rifle. Expect two or three mandatory eight hour overtimes shifts a week. An in 64 hour weeks. Mandatory due to Staffing requirements. On a daily basis protect Inmates from other Inmates. Get used to riots, rapings, murders, suicides, and killers who can quote Chapter and Verse what their entitled to. Deal with the criminally mentally ill and a culture of Inmate Entitlements. Expect to have to justify the “Use of Force” on paper and in Interviews every week. OH… The best part is you’ll be the “overpaid brutal indulged scapegoat” for all prison problems in the Press. California gives millions to the private “Prison Law Office” at San Quentin to sue the Dept of Corrections. I had a twenty five years Military career and three years working in the Idaho Prision prior to this. I didn’t plan to leave after five years. But how much feces, urine, and HIV infected blood would you want thrown at you? Let the author “walk the walk” before she judges Correction Officers. P.S. We have not had a Contract in years
Robert Dawson, Boise Idaho

The benefits seem pretty excessive, all the paid time off seems to require those on duty to work more OT! I am curious why all the OT–are people injured and can’t come in? Can’t they have officers “on call” to relieve people who are due to get off duty? I think the OT issue needs to be addressed, since that seems to be where poor planning results in large expenses. If Applebee’s and Fed Ex can mandate breaks and shift changes on a 7 hour basis, why can’t a prison? (kidding, sort of. I guess exceptions can be made for riot lock-downs) I don’t have much sympathy for the working holidays and stuff–seems like that could be addressed too–the new recruits at the bottom of the pay scale or ask for volunteers to work holidays. Jewish or atheist officers could work xmas day. Most industries do it this way, or you just have to tough it out and work anyway.

It’d be interesting to see when the high salaries were implemented–perhaps at a time when they couldn’t find anyone to take those jobs? Utimately, the compensation structure was implemented at some past date and now it has overgrown the tax base. I wouldn’t be surprised if the “top earners” are slated for early retirement so that the budget can be brought back in line. A lot of public institutions use this as a way of cutting their long-time employees who have maxed out the pay scale. Private companies do this all the time (which is why being over 40 is a protected class under CA employment law). Your experienced workers are the first to get axed so they can hire cheaper entry level folks.

I’d like to see teachers paid this much and not prison guards. I guess the teacher’s union(s) didn’t have enought “muscle” to amp up the pay scale. I am usually in support of unions, but this one does seem to have gone far over the line of reasonableness.

[Author]

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