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April 2, 2013 at 9:36 AM #20606April 2, 2013 at 9:49 AM #760964SK in CVParticipant
This isn’t another one. Stockton filed for bankruptcy protection more than 9 months ago.
April 2, 2013 at 10:34 AM #760966SD RealtorParticipantI think the poster is inferring that obligations to public pensions have contributed (in some cases substantially) to more then one city being forced to either declare bankruptcy or are on a path towards bankruptcy. (as opposed to Stockton filing multiple times)
April 2, 2013 at 12:35 PM #760967livinincaliParticipantThis is just another example of how can kicking coupled with over optimistic future assumptions gets you in trouble. In this case the biggest fighters against the bankruptcy are those holding general pension obligation bonds. You know those bonds that were going to be the savior of the pension system because you were going to borrow at 3% and make up your shortfall with a projected 8% return. Illinois has all kinds of these bonds outstanding. At least City of San Diego hasn’t gone down this path although I do believe Filner did mention this as a solution during the campaign.
It’s probably wise to assume that if you stand to get a public sector pension much above the median citizen’s income and/or free health care the day is probably coming when they are going to claw some of that back. I definitely wouldn’t count of being able to spend your defined benefit contribution for the rest of your life in full. The mathematical odds are stacked pretty high against you.
April 3, 2013 at 1:39 PM #760978NeetaTParticipantI have always paid my debts the few times that I borrowed money and felt that I should go to jail if I didn’t pay the debts.
April 3, 2013 at 3:56 PM #760980The-ShovelerParticipantWhen the City of Los Angeles goes the whole house of cards falls IMO.
It’s the 800 pound gorilla,Note, also I believe 8-10% inflation would make all this a non-event if it were to last over 5 years.
The pension short fall would be reduced to a small amount, (so would DB pensions as well).
For a city with annual revenue of 3.6 billion, a 26 billion pension short fall seems insurmountable,
No fear, inflation will save the city…
• In 2012-13, Los Angeles’s pension costs are expected to rise to $1.3 billion, or 18% of the city’s budgeted expenditures. In 2002-03, just 10 years ago, pension costs were only $157 million, or 3% of total expenditures.
• Over the last decade, pension costs have grown at an annual average growth rate of 25% and have outpaced spending growth for every major area of the city’s budget.
• In 2012-13, the city of Los Angeles is expected to spend up to 32 cents toward pension benefits for every dollar it spends on total payroll for its employees. Employees will pay 9 cents for every dollar of payroll.
• From 2003 to 2012, the total official funding ratio of the city’s pension plans declined from 99.7% to 77.2%. Correspondingly, the city’s officially-reported unfunded liability increased from $87 million to $9.4 billion, more than a 100-fold increase.
• The growth in the unfunded liability and declines in the funding ratio are largely attributable to investment returns falling below the rate pension plans assumed they would earn (on average 7.75% per annum, net of expenses, on a portfolio consisting largely of bonds and equities). Over the last 10 years, LACERS, LAFPP, and LADWP pension trust funds have earned compound annual rates of return of 6.46%, 6.68%, and 5.11%, respectively. Over the last five years, these return rates were 0.68%, 1.06%, and 1.47%, respectively.
• Using Moody’s investment return assumption (5.5%), the unfunded liabilities would nearly triple to $25.9 billion.April 3, 2013 at 4:52 PM #760981The-ShovelerParticipantI also believe that this was the entire reason for the Fed-Gov tireless reflating of the housing bubble.
THEY HAVE TO.
There is no other way to bail out local municipalities
April 3, 2013 at 5:06 PM #760982SK in CVParticipant[quote=The-Shoveler]I also believe that this was the entire reason for the Fed-Gov tireless reflating of the housing bubble.
THEY HAVE TO.
There is no other way to bail out local municipalities[/quote]
That only makes sense in CA, where the state and municipalities have only limited flexibility to adjust property tax rates. Other states have political pressure to keep property tax rates down, but not the statutory limitations that exist in CA. If the Fed were pushing inflation, the argument would have some merit. They haven’t. And it’s unlikely they ever will.
Beyond that, I don’t think there have been any government fiscal policy where the intent was to re-inflate RE prices, only to stop falling prices. Which govt action do you think has been undertaken with the intent to re-inflate prices?
April 3, 2013 at 5:47 PM #760983The-ShovelerParticipantInterest rates and enabling selling blocks of REO’s to Big investment houses.
Also Ben (official statement) denying that QE had any effect on Stock market and housing.
These aren’t the droids you’re looking for.
Really there was no pressure applied to banks (not).
In a larger sense, even without housing you would still need a fair amount of inflation to monetize these debts.
Housing is just the most direct way to inject money into state coffers.
April 3, 2013 at 6:30 PM #760984SK in CVParticipant[quote=The-Shoveler]Interest rates and enabling selling blocks of REO’s to Big investment houses.
Also Ben (official statement) denying that QE had any effect on Stock market and housing.
These aren’t the droids you’re looking for.
Really there was no pressure applied to banks (not).
In a larger sense, even without housing you would still need a fair amount of inflation to monetize these debts.
Housing is just the most direct way to inject money into state coffers.[/quote]
Starting at the end…
How so? Specifically, how is housing a direct way to inject money into state coffers?
Now, back to the beginning…I asked about government (not the Fed) action which had as its intent to re-inflate housing prices.
I would accept that the Fed, is at least in part, motivated to inflate housing prices, but it’s not their primary motivation. The Fed is bankers. The vast majority of housing debt is not owned by bankers. It was almost all private money and the GSE’s.
It’s unclear to me how selling big blocks of debt, or REO inflates housing prices. Bankers suck at dealing with distressed assets. They always have. It has always been the way that large quantities of REO and distressed debt has been dealt with. They sell them cheap, the faster the better. In the past, it has at times stabilized prices, but I can’t think of a single RE bubble in the past that it has re-inflated prices. (This IS different than past bubbles. The question here is not outcome, but rather motivation.)
I’m not sure how Bernanke’s claim that the QE programs have not had any effect on housing or the stock market is the least bit pertinent to the discussion. Nor do I have any recollection of him actually saying that. It seems contrary to the stated aims of the programs.
April 3, 2013 at 7:43 PM #760986SD RealtorParticipantLet’s be clear….Selling blocks of real estate has no effect at all on pricing. Housing prices are determined at the retail level. It is of no consequence whatsoever if the seller is a homeowner, an investor, a holder of a note, or any commercial entity.
Bankers do not only suck at selling homes, they don’t sell them at all. Liquidation of assets is always done by third parties for a variety of reasons.
April 4, 2013 at 6:19 AM #760992The-ShovelerParticipantI don’t have time to dig up the link to the interview, but admittedly Ben was talking more to the Record Stock market levels than housing saying that QE was not the cause.
But RE-Prices development fees and Tax’s do have a direct effect on the States bottom line.
And there is such a thing as supply and demandOther than that (YOU WIN!!)
This is not going anywhere and I don’t have time.April 4, 2013 at 7:20 AM #760994livinincaliParticipant[quote=The-Shoveler]When the City of Los Angeles goes the whole house of cards falls IMO.
It’s the 800 pound gorilla,Note, also I believe 8-10% inflation would make all this a non-event if it were to last over 5 years.
The pension short fall would be reduced to a small amount, (so would DB pensions as well).
[/quote]How exactly would 8-10% inflation make this go away. Most defined benefit pension plans have a COLA associated with them that is based on CPI.
I guess your hope is that with 8-10% inflation you’ll end up with a corresponding 8-10% increase in wages which will drive a corresponding increase in tax revenues. Those tax revenues will now be sufficient to pay the pension shortfall but at the same time you’ve increased liability on the pension side. Why do we need 8-10% inflation? Why can’t we just go with the deflationary solution and default/reduce benefits?
This is the problem with most economic models and economists. They look for a solution to a problem by adjusting one variable and assuming everything else is going to stay the same. The thing is it doesn’t work like that. In a 10% inflation environment wages might only go up 5% while gas and food goes up 20%. It’s extremely tough to get uniform high inflation across the board. In your case it’s lets inflate wages and hold everything else constant.
April 4, 2013 at 7:39 AM #760995SD RealtorParticipantAgreed Cali…As you know, if you take a close look at the prices of food, water, and energy we have been on a very nice inflationary clip. Most people just like to gulp down stats that are calculated in a friendly way. I love the “inflation will get us out of the mess argument” as it is always assumed the rising tide will lift all boats. In reality the disparity between rich and poor will accelerate and the majority of those in the middle will not enjoy that theory because no chance their wages will keep up… that is assuming they even keep their jobs as more quality jobs bite the dust.
April 4, 2013 at 7:45 AM #760996The-ShovelerParticipantDeflation only helps people who have no debt, a constant fixed income (Retired mostly) or a very large bank account.
ie… not the majority of Americans or working people paying off debt.
Most DB pension plans have a fixed inflation adjustment cap (most are 2% some go up to 5%) I have never seen an unlimited one or at 8-10%.Wages and everything except DB payouts.
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