OT – Inside Obama’s “Tax Cut” Can you say Redistribution!

[Shadowfax]

[quote=asianautica]Our tax system have HAS so many wholes HOLES because it was written by the rich for the rich. You don’t truly believe these fat cats in Washington actually care about you, do you? Who are you to draw $250k as rich? Why not $150k? that’s a lot more than 85% of Americans. If you want to reward work, then stop rewarding people who don’t work. Why would they work if they’re getting rewarding for not working? A guy who’s on welfare and who would get all these extra tax credit from Obama wouldn’t want to get off his ass and get a minimum wage job to end up w/ less than what he gets for doing nothing.

I’m all for closing all the tax loop holes and make everyone pay their fair share, including all those people who don’t have a job and are on welfare. They can do community service and such to EARN their welfare. I just don’t see it happening. You can try and prove me wrong, but asking me to put my trust in a guy I don’t know… well, I’ll just have to say “In God I trust, everyone else, bring data”.[/quote]

While there are probably some destitute folks that collect a check and don’t have any plans or aspirations to get a job, there are a lot of folks out there who are facing real, stiff challenges in seeking employment. It takes money to make money, even in the minimum wage world. To get a job you have to have adequate (suitable) clothing, transportation, a minimal education (fill out a job app at McD’s), etc. Many of the destitute are not well equipped–societally or financially–to even start a job search. And as you point out, the minimum wage/low wage market is not very appealing when you can make not much less by not working.

Someone posted some great data (I may track back and try to find it) about how a large percentage of those “lazy, jobless, tax evaders” are actually retirees and the disabled. Retirees often don’t have the option to get employment since they are outside the employable age, may have physical limitations and they live on reduced incomes (be nice to Grandpa, the Walmart Greeter–hey, bonus to Walmart, he already collects Social Security and is eligible for Medicare!). Do you want to squeeze them for taking their tax rebates? How about the guy who is a paraplegic and also mentally disabled who puts together component parts on an assembly line ’cause he can’t really find any other work? Oh, wait, his $8/hour job just got shipped overseas to Indonesia where they only have to pay $1/day–yeehaw, look at those corporate profits soar. And there are people who transition in and out of “poor” status–laid off and takes them a year or two to complete some courses to enter a new field…

My point? Don’t generalize. At any given time, there are people “not working” and “not paying taxes” but they are not all baby-mamas and fat lazy union workers. Some really don’t have any prospects or don’t have enough hope or belief that the system will work for them. I suspect their numbers will be growing in the coming months as the economic nuclear fall-out starts wafting down on America’s Main Streets.

[an]

[quote=Shadowfax]
While there are probably some destitute folks that collect a check and don’t have any plans or aspirations to get a job, there are a lot of folks out there who are facing real, stiff challenges in seeking employment. It takes money to make money, even in the minimum wage world. To get a job you have to have adequate (suitable) clothing, transportation, a minimal education (fill out a job app at McD’s), etc. Many of the destitute are not well equipped–societally or financially–to even start a job search. And as you point out, the minimum wage/low wage market is not very appealing when you can make not much less by not working.

Someone posted some great data (I may track back and try to find it) about how a large percentage of those “lazy, jobless, tax evaders” are actually retirees and the disabled. Retirees often don’t have the option to get employment since they are outside the employable age, may have physical limitations and they live on reduced incomes (be nice to Grandpa, the Walmart Greeter–hey, bonus to Walmart, he already collects Social Security and is eligible for Medicare!). Do you want to squeeze them for taking their tax rebates? How about the guy who is a paraplegic and also mentally disabled who puts together component parts on an assembly line ’cause he can’t really find any other work? Oh, wait, his $8/hour job just got shipped overseas to Indonesia where they only have to pay $1/day–yeehaw, look at those corporate profits soar. And there are people who transition in and out of “poor” status–laid off and takes them a year or two to complete some courses to enter a new field…

My point? Don’t generalize. At any given time, there are people “not working” and “not paying taxes” but they are not all baby-mamas and fat lazy union workers. Some really don’t have any prospects or don’t have enough hope or belief that the system will work for them. I suspect their numbers will be growing in the coming months as the economic nuclear fall-out starts wafting down on America’s Main Streets.[/quote]
I agree with you regarding the retirees and disabled. I don’t considered them in this category I’m generalizing about. The people I’m refering to are the people who could work but choose not to. I think they’re still a decent portion of welfare recipient. I know many who came to this country with nothing more than the clothes on their back. They worked extremely hard, starting at the bottom with minimum wage. Then they got the education and moved on up. Some came here in their 20s, 30s, and even 40s, yet they all went through this path and now are doing decently well to extremely well.

[an]

[quote=Shadowfax]
While there are probably some destitute folks that collect a check and don’t have any plans or aspirations to get a job, there are a lot of folks out there who are facing real, stiff challenges in seeking employment. It takes money to make money, even in the minimum wage world. To get a job you have to have adequate (suitable) clothing, transportation, a minimal education (fill out a job app at McD’s), etc. Many of the destitute are not well equipped–societally or financially–to even start a job search. And as you point out, the minimum wage/low wage market is not very appealing when you can make not much less by not working.

Someone posted some great data (I may track back and try to find it) about how a large percentage of those “lazy, jobless, tax evaders” are actually retirees and the disabled. Retirees often don’t have the option to get employment since they are outside the employable age, may have physical limitations and they live on reduced incomes (be nice to Grandpa, the Walmart Greeter–hey, bonus to Walmart, he already collects Social Security and is eligible for Medicare!). Do you want to squeeze them for taking their tax rebates? How about the guy who is a paraplegic and also mentally disabled who puts together component parts on an assembly line ’cause he can’t really find any other work? Oh, wait, his $8/hour job just got shipped overseas to Indonesia where they only have to pay $1/day–yeehaw, look at those corporate profits soar. And there are people who transition in and out of “poor” status–laid off and takes them a year or two to complete some courses to enter a new field…

My point? Don’t generalize. At any given time, there are people “not working” and “not paying taxes” but they are not all baby-mamas and fat lazy union workers. Some really don’t have any prospects or don’t have enough hope or belief that the system will work for them. I suspect their numbers will be growing in the coming months as the economic nuclear fall-out starts wafting down on America’s Main Streets.[/quote]
I agree with you regarding the retirees and disabled. I don’t considered them in this category I’m generalizing about. The people I’m refering to are the people who could work but choose not to. I think they’re still a decent portion of welfare recipient. I know many who came to this country with nothing more than the clothes on their back. They worked extremely hard, starting at the bottom with minimum wage. Then they got the education and moved on up. Some came here in their 20s, 30s, and even 40s, yet they all went through this path and now are doing decently well to extremely well.

[an]

[quote=Shadowfax]
While there are probably some destitute folks that collect a check and don’t have any plans or aspirations to get a job, there are a lot of folks out there who are facing real, stiff challenges in seeking employment. It takes money to make money, even in the minimum wage world. To get a job you have to have adequate (suitable) clothing, transportation, a minimal education (fill out a job app at McD’s), etc. Many of the destitute are not well equipped–societally or financially–to even start a job search. And as you point out, the minimum wage/low wage market is not very appealing when you can make not much less by not working.

Someone posted some great data (I may track back and try to find it) about how a large percentage of those “lazy, jobless, tax evaders” are actually retirees and the disabled. Retirees often don’t have the option to get employment since they are outside the employable age, may have physical limitations and they live on reduced incomes (be nice to Grandpa, the Walmart Greeter–hey, bonus to Walmart, he already collects Social Security and is eligible for Medicare!). Do you want to squeeze them for taking their tax rebates? How about the guy who is a paraplegic and also mentally disabled who puts together component parts on an assembly line ’cause he can’t really find any other work? Oh, wait, his $8/hour job just got shipped overseas to Indonesia where they only have to pay $1/day–yeehaw, look at those corporate profits soar. And there are people who transition in and out of “poor” status–laid off and takes them a year or two to complete some courses to enter a new field…

My point? Don’t generalize. At any given time, there are people “not working” and “not paying taxes” but they are not all baby-mamas and fat lazy union workers. Some really don’t have any prospects or don’t have enough hope or belief that the system will work for them. I suspect their numbers will be growing in the coming months as the economic nuclear fall-out starts wafting down on America’s Main Streets.[/quote]
I agree with you regarding the retirees and disabled. I don’t considered them in this category I’m generalizing about. The people I’m refering to are the people who could work but choose not to. I think they’re still a decent portion of welfare recipient. I know many who came to this country with nothing more than the clothes on their back. They worked extremely hard, starting at the bottom with minimum wage. Then they got the education and moved on up. Some came here in their 20s, 30s, and even 40s, yet they all went through this path and now are doing decently well to extremely well.

[an]

[quote=Shadowfax]
While there are probably some destitute folks that collect a check and don’t have any plans or aspirations to get a job, there are a lot of folks out there who are facing real, stiff challenges in seeking employment. It takes money to make money, even in the minimum wage world. To get a job you have to have adequate (suitable) clothing, transportation, a minimal education (fill out a job app at McD’s), etc. Many of the destitute are not well equipped–societally or financially–to even start a job search. And as you point out, the minimum wage/low wage market is not very appealing when you can make not much less by not working.

Someone posted some great data (I may track back and try to find it) about how a large percentage of those “lazy, jobless, tax evaders” are actually retirees and the disabled. Retirees often don’t have the option to get employment since they are outside the employable age, may have physical limitations and they live on reduced incomes (be nice to Grandpa, the Walmart Greeter–hey, bonus to Walmart, he already collects Social Security and is eligible for Medicare!). Do you want to squeeze them for taking their tax rebates? How about the guy who is a paraplegic and also mentally disabled who puts together component parts on an assembly line ’cause he can’t really find any other work? Oh, wait, his $8/hour job just got shipped overseas to Indonesia where they only have to pay $1/day–yeehaw, look at those corporate profits soar. And there are people who transition in and out of “poor” status–laid off and takes them a year or two to complete some courses to enter a new field…

My point? Don’t generalize. At any given time, there are people “not working” and “not paying taxes” but they are not all baby-mamas and fat lazy union workers. Some really don’t have any prospects or don’t have enough hope or belief that the system will work for them. I suspect their numbers will be growing in the coming months as the economic nuclear fall-out starts wafting down on America’s Main Streets.[/quote]
I agree with you regarding the retirees and disabled. I don’t considered them in this category I’m generalizing about. The people I’m refering to are the people who could work but choose not to. I think they’re still a decent portion of welfare recipient. I know many who came to this country with nothing more than the clothes on their back. They worked extremely hard, starting at the bottom with minimum wage. Then they got the education and moved on up. Some came here in their 20s, 30s, and even 40s, yet they all went through this path and now are doing decently well to extremely well.

[an]

[quote=Shadowfax]
While there are probably some destitute folks that collect a check and don’t have any plans or aspirations to get a job, there are a lot of folks out there who are facing real, stiff challenges in seeking employment. It takes money to make money, even in the minimum wage world. To get a job you have to have adequate (suitable) clothing, transportation, a minimal education (fill out a job app at McD’s), etc. Many of the destitute are not well equipped–societally or financially–to even start a job search. And as you point out, the minimum wage/low wage market is not very appealing when you can make not much less by not working.

Someone posted some great data (I may track back and try to find it) about how a large percentage of those “lazy, jobless, tax evaders” are actually retirees and the disabled. Retirees often don’t have the option to get employment since they are outside the employable age, may have physical limitations and they live on reduced incomes (be nice to Grandpa, the Walmart Greeter–hey, bonus to Walmart, he already collects Social Security and is eligible for Medicare!). Do you want to squeeze them for taking their tax rebates? How about the guy who is a paraplegic and also mentally disabled who puts together component parts on an assembly line ’cause he can’t really find any other work? Oh, wait, his $8/hour job just got shipped overseas to Indonesia where they only have to pay $1/day–yeehaw, look at those corporate profits soar. And there are people who transition in and out of “poor” status–laid off and takes them a year or two to complete some courses to enter a new field…

My point? Don’t generalize. At any given time, there are people “not working” and “not paying taxes” but they are not all baby-mamas and fat lazy union workers. Some really don’t have any prospects or don’t have enough hope or belief that the system will work for them. I suspect their numbers will be growing in the coming months as the economic nuclear fall-out starts wafting down on America’s Main Streets.[/quote]
I agree with you regarding the retirees and disabled. I don’t considered them in this category I’m generalizing about. The people I’m refering to are the people who could work but choose not to. I think they’re still a decent portion of welfare recipient. I know many who came to this country with nothing more than the clothes on their back. They worked extremely hard, starting at the bottom with minimum wage. Then they got the education and moved on up. Some came here in their 20s, 30s, and even 40s, yet they all went through this path and now are doing decently well to extremely well.

[Shadowfax]

There is a downward spiral in certain socio-economic areas that defies explanation but it is very real. I admire those who come her from afar, work hard and create for themselves the American Dream. Many times there is a support network of others who came before or others they want to help at home. Most of us who are native born are sons and daughters of an immigrant somewhere.

Ironically, I think that immigrants who come here actually have an advantage. There is a sort of collective “poor self-esteem” amongst many native born, poor Americans. And I think this rings true in “blighted” urban areas and destitute rural areas. Where the immigrant sees a land of opportunity, the domestic poor see oppression and see the odds stacked against them. Education is usually minimal or non-existent. Same for positive (or realistic) role models from their walk of life or alternative perspectives. Immigrant groups tend to help each other while domestic poor tend to drag each other down into the mud–they seem to not want their neighbors to succeed. I think there are many who pull themselves out of this cycle, but many fall prey to easy money (drug dealing and other illegal activities), substance abuse, etc.

It’s really sad and paradoxical and many sociology types have studied it and can’t find a way to fix it. I personally believe a message of hope will help, if only in a miniscule way.

[Shadowfax]

There is a downward spiral in certain socio-economic areas that defies explanation but it is very real. I admire those who come her from afar, work hard and create for themselves the American Dream. Many times there is a support network of others who came before or others they want to help at home. Most of us who are native born are sons and daughters of an immigrant somewhere.

Ironically, I think that immigrants who come here actually have an advantage. There is a sort of collective “poor self-esteem” amongst many native born, poor Americans. And I think this rings true in “blighted” urban areas and destitute rural areas. Where the immigrant sees a land of opportunity, the domestic poor see oppression and see the odds stacked against them. Education is usually minimal or non-existent. Same for positive (or realistic) role models from their walk of life or alternative perspectives. Immigrant groups tend to help each other while domestic poor tend to drag each other down into the mud–they seem to not want their neighbors to succeed. I think there are many who pull themselves out of this cycle, but many fall prey to easy money (drug dealing and other illegal activities), substance abuse, etc.

It’s really sad and paradoxical and many sociology types have studied it and can’t find a way to fix it. I personally believe a message of hope will help, if only in a miniscule way.

[Shadowfax]

There is a downward spiral in certain socio-economic areas that defies explanation but it is very real. I admire those who come her from afar, work hard and create for themselves the American Dream. Many times there is a support network of others who came before or others they want to help at home. Most of us who are native born are sons and daughters of an immigrant somewhere.

Ironically, I think that immigrants who come here actually have an advantage. There is a sort of collective “poor self-esteem” amongst many native born, poor Americans. And I think this rings true in “blighted” urban areas and destitute rural areas. Where the immigrant sees a land of opportunity, the domestic poor see oppression and see the odds stacked against them. Education is usually minimal or non-existent. Same for positive (or realistic) role models from their walk of life or alternative perspectives. Immigrant groups tend to help each other while domestic poor tend to drag each other down into the mud–they seem to not want their neighbors to succeed. I think there are many who pull themselves out of this cycle, but many fall prey to easy money (drug dealing and other illegal activities), substance abuse, etc.

It’s really sad and paradoxical and many sociology types have studied it and can’t find a way to fix it. I personally believe a message of hope will help, if only in a miniscule way.

[Shadowfax]

There is a downward spiral in certain socio-economic areas that defies explanation but it is very real. I admire those who come her from afar, work hard and create for themselves the American Dream. Many times there is a support network of others who came before or others they want to help at home. Most of us who are native born are sons and daughters of an immigrant somewhere.

Ironically, I think that immigrants who come here actually have an advantage. There is a sort of collective “poor self-esteem” amongst many native born, poor Americans. And I think this rings true in “blighted” urban areas and destitute rural areas. Where the immigrant sees a land of opportunity, the domestic poor see oppression and see the odds stacked against them. Education is usually minimal or non-existent. Same for positive (or realistic) role models from their walk of life or alternative perspectives. Immigrant groups tend to help each other while domestic poor tend to drag each other down into the mud–they seem to not want their neighbors to succeed. I think there are many who pull themselves out of this cycle, but many fall prey to easy money (drug dealing and other illegal activities), substance abuse, etc.

It’s really sad and paradoxical and many sociology types have studied it and can’t find a way to fix it. I personally believe a message of hope will help, if only in a miniscule way.

[Shadowfax]

There is a downward spiral in certain socio-economic areas that defies explanation but it is very real. I admire those who come her from afar, work hard and create for themselves the American Dream. Many times there is a support network of others who came before or others they want to help at home. Most of us who are native born are sons and daughters of an immigrant somewhere.

Ironically, I think that immigrants who come here actually have an advantage. There is a sort of collective “poor self-esteem” amongst many native born, poor Americans. And I think this rings true in “blighted” urban areas and destitute rural areas. Where the immigrant sees a land of opportunity, the domestic poor see oppression and see the odds stacked against them. Education is usually minimal or non-existent. Same for positive (or realistic) role models from their walk of life or alternative perspectives. Immigrant groups tend to help each other while domestic poor tend to drag each other down into the mud–they seem to not want their neighbors to succeed. I think there are many who pull themselves out of this cycle, but many fall prey to easy money (drug dealing and other illegal activities), substance abuse, etc.

It’s really sad and paradoxical and many sociology types have studied it and can’t find a way to fix it. I personally believe a message of hope will help, if only in a miniscule way.

[an]

Shadowfax, I agree with your assessment of the differences between the two groups. The question now is, how do we help these native born? Would penalizing those who made it and throwing more $ at this problem will help fix it? My personal opinion is, no. I’ve seen what hard work and determination can do and have done, so I think all the opportunities are there, whether these native born grab it or not is a whole different story. I can guarantee you that these “poor” native born haven’t really seen poor. I can guarantee you that many people in my native country would trade their lives with the poorest here in the US in a heart beat.

[an]

Shadowfax, I agree with your assessment of the differences between the two groups. The question now is, how do we help these native born? Would penalizing those who made it and throwing more $ at this problem will help fix it? My personal opinion is, no. I’ve seen what hard work and determination can do and have done, so I think all the opportunities are there, whether these native born grab it or not is a whole different story. I can guarantee you that these “poor” native born haven’t really seen poor. I can guarantee you that many people in my native country would trade their lives with the poorest here in the US in a heart beat.

[an]

Shadowfax, I agree with your assessment of the differences between the two groups. The question now is, how do we help these native born? Would penalizing those who made it and throwing more $ at this problem will help fix it? My personal opinion is, no. I’ve seen what hard work and determination can do and have done, so I think all the opportunities are there, whether these native born grab it or not is a whole different story. I can guarantee you that these “poor” native born haven’t really seen poor. I can guarantee you that many people in my native country would trade their lives with the poorest here in the US in a heart beat.

[an]

Shadowfax, I agree with your assessment of the differences between the two groups. The question now is, how do we help these native born? Would penalizing those who made it and throwing more $ at this problem will help fix it? My personal opinion is, no. I’ve seen what hard work and determination can do and have done, so I think all the opportunities are there, whether these native born grab it or not is a whole different story. I can guarantee you that these “poor” native born haven’t really seen poor. I can guarantee you that many people in my native country would trade their lives with the poorest here in the US in a heart beat.

[Author]

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