OT- CONTEST!!! Guess public sector household earnings

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=pri_dk]

But I was talking about, and responding to, the points about the individual compensation for real estate professionals. There’s a difference.

Government activity has almost no influence on agent commission rates. The rate is always an individual agreement between clients and the agents.

Of course the two markets are related, and one could argue that government activity increases the volume of transactions, and thus provides more need/demand for real estate services. But that is only a tangential effect of government policy, at best. And there is no government policy that inhibits people from becoming agents, entering the (labor) market, and competing for the same pool of compensation.

We have 9% unemployment, and agents are making an “easy” 100K. All you have to do is take a few classes and pass a test to become an agent. So why aren’t more people doing it? If the government were handing out money, why wouldn’t more people be in line to take it? (thus driving down commissions as more agents compete…)

Give yourself some credit. Your job is harder and/or takes more qualifications than you describe. At least to make a living at it.

[/quote]
I think we are talking past each other here.
I don’t mean that the government is just throwing cash at agents.
I do mean that the whole post WWII megatrend of creeping (or galloping) RE price increases is heavily influenced by government sponsorship.
There’s is a lot of evidence for that.
Prior to the 40’s (or late 30’s) the govt was largely out of the real estate game.
Prior to that time down payments were generally about 50%.
Here is a good explainer:
http://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/cb/articles/?id=797
The government is creating the market through preponderant ownership of the means of production.
That largely government-controlled market is what makes the worked performed more appealing as an income.
So its not a direct subsidy.
We are ancillary service-vendors to a market that is heavily manipulated.
And no, I don’t think its easy.
Anyway direct subsidy does not mean jobs are plentiful, desirable or easy.
I am married to a teacher and I would never use any of those words.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=pri_dk] . . . To use the argument that you and BG repeat ad nauseam: “If it’s so good, why don’t you do it?”

You don’t even have to wait for an opening, and don’t have to vest before you start receiving your full, generous, “government subsidized” compensation. Go for it![/quote]

And this, in a nutshell, is the reason why Joe6P-Pigg and Joe6p-nonPigg alike do NOT routinely apply for these positions! The “time lapse” between getting hired, serving one or more “probationary periods” and ultimately getting “vested” at the five or ten-year mark could prove to be “problematic,” at the very least.

It all looks easy and “cushy” at the outset … that is, until one actually “goes thru the motions” required to actually “vest” in one of these “complicated” retirement plans.

Herein lies the problem. :=D

Thank you for clarifying this issue for the forum, pri_dk. You have bolstered what I’m trying to say here … immeasurably. Keep your thinking cap on and keep going ……. ;=]

[CA renter]

We almost forgot the largest govt subsidy for the REIC: mortgage interest deduction.

If someone wants to claim that this doesn’t affect commissions for individual agents, please explain why the NAR is fighting so hard to keep the MID.
……………

“The National Association of Realtors wants lawmakers to preserve some type of government-guarantee for the secondary mortgage market as it moves forward with housing finance reforms, the association’s president Ron Phipps said in a podcast Thursday.

Phipps said his organization has representatives in Washington fighting to preserve mortgage interest deductions and the standard 30-year, fixed-rate mortgage.

NAR’s concerns — like those of many homeownership advocacy groups — rose after the Treasury Department revealed mortgage finance reforms that envision a private-sector led market with very limited government-guaranteed loans. NAR’s concerns about the changes mirror those of small community banks.

“A reliable secondary market is essential so that the nation’s Main Street community banks can continue to offer residential mortgages to their customers,” according to Jim MacPhee, chairman of the Independent Community Bankers of America. “While reform should focus on preventing future crises in the housing market and embracing the common-sense underwriting standards long practiced by community banks, it should not eliminate all government involvement in the secondary market while turning it over to Wall Street,” MacPhee said following the Treasury’s proposals were announced.”

http://www.housingwire.com/2011/03/03/nar-lobbying-to-preserve-mortgage-interest-deduction-30-year-fixed-mortgage

Whether the MID simply causes buyers to pay more for housing (assuming prices are dynamic and respond to things like interest rates and the MID) or if it causes taxpayers to subsidize the housing industry (assuming prices are static and taxpayers are paying a portion that the buyers/owners would otherwise be paying), it is costing taxpayers and/or consumers more money.

It is costing us (taxpayers and/or consumers — however you choose to look at it) around $100 million per year, IIRC.

[edit: I meant $100 Billion — with a “B” — not million. But looking at the numbers, it is actually more than that.]

[CA renter]

[quote=sdrealtor]Yes real estate is subsidized? Yes I make more omn each transaction because of that? I also make less as a realtor than I did in anything else I have done in the last 20 years and do this for the lifestyle it affords me not the income. Most realtors make minimum wage or less for the time they put in. Not complaint just stating a fact. Not whining either as I love my life and giving up making more money for having more control over my time is a choice I have happily made.

OK back to where we were. Public servants do a very noble thing. They serve us and for that I am grateful. Am I grateful enough that they should earn in the top 1 to 2 percent of wage earners in this country while having full health benefits and a mid 6 figure pension to look forward to in their 50’s? Probably not. I like them, I respect them, I don’t want their jobs or lifestyles. Does that mean I can’t consider them over compensated? That I don’t understand.[/quote]

You (and everyone else) are absolutely entitled to think they are overcompensated, just as you (and everyone else) are absolutely entitled to think realtors, athletes, entertainers, salespeople, executives, plumbers, electricians, [insert “every other job but my own” here] are overcompensated, too.

You do realize that the vast majority of public sector workers are earning **nowhere near** the top 1-2% (not even close, even for dual-income households with lots of overtime!!!), and don’t have six-figure pensions to look forward to, right?

You were talking about a two-income couple, at least one of whom had a graduate degree and worked in healthcare, the other probably worked in public safety. You claimed to know that they didn’t work any overtime for that pay, but I can tell you for a fact that reviewing their tax returns (nor year-end pay stubs, based on everything I’ve ever seen) won’t give you that information (as others have already pointed out…why in the world would they share that information with a realtor they are interviewing for a short sale???).

[Anonymous]

[quote=Hobie]I am also not a fan of commissioned realtors.[/quote]

And I’m not a fan of gourmet coffee drinks. I don’t like paying $6 for a “triple latte frapawhatever…” I think many people pay way too much for that stuff and the people who sell it are making a ridiculous profit selling flavored water.

So what do I do? Simple: I don’t buy any.

Don’t like real estate commissions? Then find a broker who charges less. Don’t like percentage-based commissions? Then negotiate a fixed fee.

Or don’t use an agent at all, and pay nothing.

Or just don’t buy real estate. Many people live full, productive, happy lives and never pay a Realtor a dime. My grandparents never owned a house, my parents only owned one, and it’s possible I will never transact in real estate again in my own lifetime – and if I do – it’s entirely my own choice what I pay for any services I hire.

Now lets compare real-estate agents with those who provide public services: CalTrans employees, teachers, firefighters, environmental engineers, park rangers, lab analysts, or any of the thousands of bureaucrats in office buildings at the county seat and in Sacramento.

If you “aren’t a fan” of what you are paying for these services, then you don’t have the same options. In fact, you have very few options.

I certainly wouldn’t suggest attempting to avoid paying for their services, or paying less for their services.

Because you will pay the established price – a price very few even know – a price that has been determined by a convoluted process full of backroom deals – or you will ultimately end up in prison.

Now, tell me again, which market is more “free?”

[CA renter]

Just posted a number of posts showing that the housing market is NOT free. When we buy a home, we don’t have a choice to buy a “govt-manipulation-free” house. The amount you overpay for a house as a result of govt-intervention (and you’re paying extra in RE taxes, income taxes, higher commission/transaction costs, AND higher housing prices) is likely to be far, far, far more than you’ll ever pay toward public servants’ retirement/compensation in your lifetime.

We ALL have to pay for things we don’t want to pay for. Every single one of us. No, we don’t have a choice, contrary to your assertions. That’s the price we pay to live in a civilized democracy.

[CA renter]

By the way, you DO have a choice WRT how much you pay toward public services.

You’re free to move to a city/county/state/country with very low costs for public employees. There are a number of places just in this country where they only employ a couple of cops and have volunteer fire departments.

So you DO have a choice; you just choose to live in a high-cost city/county/state.

Some of us like to live in an area with robust public services. We enjoy the amenities and want the highest-quality people to do these jobs. We are more than willing to pay for it, too. We have the right to make this choice, too. The great thing about this country is that we all have choices. Feel free to practice what you preach and move to one of these lower-cost areas.

[(former)FormerSanDiegan]

CAN you PLEEEEASE post the number now ?

I really don;t wnat to read through any more diatribes on how realtors are also leeches and the same old tired discussion on real estate subsidies via the tax code , preferential treatment, etc that people were arguing about on this site 6 or 7 years ago.

Inquiring minds want to know. What was the income ?

[Anonymous]

[quote=CA renter]By the way, you DO have a choice […] You’re free to move to a city/county/state/country [/quote]

“Love it or leave it”

Seriously?

It works both ways, BTW. There are plenty of countries that don’t have “Wall Streets,” private banks, or even those awful real-estate professionals.

Yes, you too can eliminate all these distasteful things from your life – just by relocating!

If you like, I can provide you a complete list of countries that have the characteristics you seem to prefer.

In the meantime, you can start your research by looking up countries have the phrase “People’s Republic” in their names.

[SD Realtor]

Hobie what points are there to address? Why should there be any public outcry at all when you have plenty of alternatives? While you feel most people may be intimidated or emotionally reacting, I would argue the other way which is, most people are simply to lazy to do research and explore other options. Most everyone who had ever visited Piggington did so because they started to research housing. It takes time and effort. So why should there be public outcry over a system that already has plenty of alternatives for consumers?

There should be public outcry over plenty of other things. The system is plenty f-ked up but not because of commissioned realtors. The public outcry should be over the manipulation of the entire market. Of creating an entire system that places valuations of assets that is freaking crazy.

************************************************
Regarding the overall argument that has mushroomed on this thread….

What would happen if we totally overhauled the tax code and made it so simple that anyone could prepare returns?

Do you guys think a few accountants would lose jobs?

***********************

Lets be very honest here… Does anyone really think that all of the subsidizing we see for home ownership was done with the goal of gainful employment for realtors?

Really does ANYONE believe that? Come on now, the govt is begging, pleading for people to buy homes because of the OVERALL employment benefits. We have seen that it is pretty much the lynchpin of the economy. Don’t MISTAKE this argument for some comparison of realtors verses public workers because it is not. However for people to think that historic measures to promote home ownership are targetted for realtor employment is absurd.

I will not try to defend the job of a realtor because it would be a waste here. It would be just as much of a waste as me trying to explain how to build a fractional resampler with interpolation using a farrow filter. I have done both and know the challenges of each. Few if any of you here know either with the exception of a few dsp engineers and the other realtors.

For those crying that public workers have suffered more cuts or job losses then the private sector, I have to laugh. Guess what, things are tough all over. Everyone has suffered.

[an]

[quote=CA renter]The amount you overpay for a house as a result of govt-intervention (and you’re paying extra in RE taxes, income taxes, higher commission/transaction costs, AND higher housing prices) is likely to be far, far, far more than you’ll ever pay toward public servants’ retirement/compensation in your lifetime.[/quote]
Do you have numbers to back up this assertion? As I run the numbers in my earlier post WRT to the pension numbers TG provided. An average of pension at $28k/year comes out to $800k-$1M over 30-40 years of receiving such benefits. A $100k/year pension comes out to $3M-$4M over 30-40 years. Can you provide numbers to how much an average person is overpaying in their house? I love to see the “far, far, far more…” numbers.

BTW, just to keep in mind, lower taxes = lower funding for public services. How much worse would the pension short fall be if there’s less tax money coming in?

[(former)FormerSanDiegan]

number ? PLEEEASE

We’ve already passed the sharks and zombies stage and have moved into the “if you don’t like it you can move to a different country” stage.

If we’re not careful we will reach the Hitler precipice, where all threads go to die.

So, what was the number ???

[blahblahblah]

[quote=FormerSanDiegan]number ? PLEEEASE

We’ve already passed the sharks and zombies stage and have moved into the “if you don’t like it you can move to a different country” stage.

If we’re not careful we will reach the Hitler precipice, where all threads go to die.

So, what was the number ???[/quote]

Hahahahaha ROTFL.

Yes, the number please.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=SD Realtor]Yeah Hobie I guess that nasty realtor goes to peoples homes and puts a gun to their head to force them to use him. Obviously there are no choices for people out there like Redfin or even flat fee models like Help U Sell.

Sounds like the Realtor KGB has a stranglehold on our society.

Personally I like to show up with an uzi at my listing appts.[/quote]

Hmmmm…. Jewish agent with an Israeli firearm.
We better call Markmax to investigate your control of the media.

On a more serious note about agent commissions:
I actually agree that there are an unsatisfying shortage of pricing models for agent services. Help-U-Sell had some ideas but really lost respect (for A: the predictable disdain of competing agents and B: for selling franchises to inexperienced agents) and respect is huge in this game. People don’t use the “best” solution or the “cheapest” solution. They use the most trusted solution.
Other competitive tricks (not used as an insult) have some sticking power but not a lot. Redfin has lots of agents but is really just a self-service search site (though they do close about 15 per month).

I don’t agree that standard Realtors have a stranglehold.
I do believe that most other solutions are broadly looked upon with suspicion.

The thing that gets me is that most of the high volume clients do not leverage their position.

Most banks pay 2% listing side to every REO agent and offer incentives to double end and pay 5%.

It would make more sense for them to offer a job board where we could bid on jobs.

Speaking for myself, if I could get 10 REO listings to advertise, it would be worth taking a dramatically reduced listing commission.

[Coronita]

Until sdr gives us the number. I have to ask…

What would “The One” do in this scenario (ok, to clarify, “The One” in the office (Obama)?”

What would “The One” do in this scenario(you, know the other “The One”, Ron Paul?”

What about Romney and Newt?

Can we get do a comparison between the domestic policy of Ron Paul, Newt, Romney, and Obama?

[Author]

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