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January 20, 2010 at 1:36 PM #504717January 20, 2010 at 1:50 PM #503840
felix
Participant[quote=Arraya][quote=felix]The spin machine is running overtime with your comments.[/quote]
I’ve been saying Obama will be a monumental dud since before his election, for the reasons I’ve stated. Much the opposite of what media was saying.
[quote]As far as the issues you raised as litmus tests for liberalism, the death penalty and same-sex marriage, I’m not sure how many states would have banned the death penalty or allowed same-sex marriage if these were left up to a democratic vote as opposed to judicial fiat, which is the usual avenue for liberals who only seem to want votes when they can win.[/quote]
Sure, you win
[quote]I do agree with you about this being about Obama’s promise of change. Most independents supported Obama wanted change. They wanted less partisanship. They wanted a government that would work for the folks. They wanted measured action to create jobs, to eliminate the deficit and keep their home values from crashing. They were fooled.[/quote]
The government works for capital, always has. Partisanship, would be there if there regardless. It’s a feature of the system. Deficits? The banks are very expensive and nobody is going to cut military spending. All you have left is social programs that are keeping unrest at bay. Try again.
[quote]America elected the least ready for high office person in my lifetime. A guy whose ideology and background screamed radical change by whatever means necessary. A guy whose lack of skills, other than to read a teleprompter, has abdicated leadership to Chicago pols and the likes of Pelosi and Reid. [/quote]
Obama doesn’t have that much power and ideology is questionable. He is kind of like an inkblot test. You see what you want to. Actions, or lack of, is louder than words.
[quote]This all was available to be known but the MSM failed us in the hate of W. They embraced this guy and looked the other way when all sorts of red flags about his background and lack of experience was there to be known.[/quote]
Nice talking point. Little relevance in the real world. His policies are a smidgen away from Bushes. Minus the corporate handout of a healthcare bill.
[quote]I been watching the Dem spin machines at work today. Some seem to understand what is happening not only in Mass but in recent elections in Virginia and in New Jersey. Most Dems though do not understand. Some are saying Obama hasn’t pushed change enough. What are they smoking?[/quote]
Dems are in a death spiral for the same reason I’ve said on this board for over a year. Because they can’t mask the fact that they are controlled by the same corporate entity the Rs are. The big difference is that is not what Ds vote for and hence lose interest or go into denial once they realize there is no difference. Whereas corporate favoritism over human needs is a platform for the right.
[quote]Folks are fed up. Pushing through anymore large programs will result in losing your job if you are an elected official, Dem or Rep. Ridiculing Tea Partyers is not wise strategy. The movement is grass roots and stronger than either party knows.[/quote]
Sure the fox news, sponsored by JP morgan and hosted by glen beck tea party. Yup, that’s about as grass roots as it comes. Suurre. haha. It’s corporate run grass roots.
[quote]As far as your second issue about good politicking. All elections sway on this aspect but Coakley was hamstrung by the issues at hand which were very unpopular with the voters. Brown would have beaten almost any Dem last night. If you don’t understand that, than you wil continue to lose to more and more Browns.[/quote]
Just repeating what I heard from actually dems in Mass that opted out from voting. What are you gonna believe actual people or what glen beck tells you.
Most thinking progressive lefts, understand Obama is a fancy speech and corporate handout healthcare bill away from Bush. He is the anti-change.
No doubt the Rs should gain a few. Not because Ds are flocking away en masse from Obama’s policies but because they don’t see a difference in policies. So why even bother if there is no reason to vote, other than their disdain for the Right.
How would monetary policy or foreign policy been different? You have both Gates and Bernake in either post that trajectories remained unchanged from one president to the next? What else has their been besides the dead insurance handout bill? Anything?
The states interaction with capital has always been there because that is the function of the state as an enforcer of Capital. Which is easily seen with it’s interaction with Wall Street. The asinine talking points coming from the right wing noise machine serves as the only major coalescing force for Obama’s support. And the right’s delusion is only matched by that on the left that sees Obama as an agent of change. Which is decreasing as the days go by and will serve as support for future Rs victory. *As I have said here for over a year*. This was easy to see coming. When every lefty on this board disagreed with me.
We have one party running the country and it’s the financial-media-corporate-military industrial complex. If *big* capital is challenged, the financial colony within our national Petri dish shape shifts into a Gila monster and squirts venom on the idea and shits money all over Capitol Hill. And just a hint, the heads of capital don’t care about yours and will legislate their way into it when they want it. What mask do you want your robber to wear. Government or corporate? You decide.
Now here is another prediction. The health care bill will be further amended . The insurance lobby, which spent 400 million writing the bill, will dictate some new compromise that will allow both parties to call victory. Unless near-term future economic problems arise. This will be echoed by the MSM. Just as MSDNC’s Chis Mathews was echoing that this was a referendum on the healthcare bill, for he is apart of the single corporate-media entity that Limbaugh is. Obama will be happy to sign anything at this point that he can call *reform” because of his lack of.[/quote]
1)Okay. I’ll take your word for that but you seemed to be right on the liberal spin talking points.
2)I’m not sure what saying I win means. Do agree or disagree that changes with regard to the death penalty and same-sex marriage have not come the voters?
3)I’d have to disagree with you here about the government working for capital. It has always worked for special interests imo. Although the special interests with the right connections may change from time to time. Capital has been screwed from time to time and it is being screwed right now by the declining dollar and potential for major inflation.
4)Are you really reduced to arguing that the Potus doesn’t have that much power? That is ridiculous.
5)Really. His politics a smidgen away from the Bushes?
I must have missed the health care push and the takeover of banks and the auto industry during the Bushes’ terms. I must have missed the kissing up the Unions during those twelve years.
I will give you that Obama’s policies with regard to Iraq and Afghanistan are remarkably similar to Ws. This is interesting since he pandered to the left and campaigned the middle of America on how bad these policies were. And that W and his people had them all wrong. Iraq is still on the W negotiated pullout timetable and Afghanistan is ready to be surged which if I recall correctly Obama opposed in Iraq.
Do you really question his ideological bent? It isn’t a case of just seeing what one wants to see. It is there for all to see if they care to look. Obama asked that we judge him by the people whom he surrounds himself. They are tax dodgers, a few radicals, some Marxists, a few black liberationists and many left wing social engineers.
And his actions underscore this, particularly, in support of universal health care and unions.6)Not sure I understand what you are saying here. If you are saying both party’s are similar and that corporate money controls how representatives on both sides vote. I agree.
7)I thought you just said the corporations play no favorites and that both sides are controlled by them. So why the JP Morgan comment about Fox or the knocking of Glenn Beck as if that is going to bother me?
Anyway believe what you want to believe, but if you don’t think this movement is real, you are mistaken. Imo for every person who shows up at Tea Party protests there are multiples who agree with them and will also vote to start being represented and to no longer be deceived.
8)I haven’t heard what Glenn Beck has to say on the subject. I was judging this by what I heard said by political commentators last night after the election and actual facts gleaned from pollsters. However, I would admit that I would give more credence to what is aid on Glenn Beck ahead of anecdotal hearsay from an anonymous internet poster, but that is me I guess.
9)Well. I certainly agree with much of what you wrote here except it isn’t certain. Is is likely butnot certain. If I may use an analogy, I think we are at the point where we are being visited by the ghost of Christmas future. The vision you have shown is disheartening. They are the vision of what will happen to us if folks don’t finally stand up, pay attention and demand change.
The folks in Mass did just that last night. The rest of us who really want to change how the government works and who it works for can stand up and use their votes to do so. The time is now.
January 20, 2010 at 1:50 PM #503982Participant[quote=Arraya][quote=felix]The spin machine is running overtime with your comments.[/quote]
I’ve been saying Obama will be a monumental dud since before his election, for the reasons I’ve stated. Much the opposite of what media was saying.
[quote]As far as the issues you raised as litmus tests for liberalism, the death penalty and same-sex marriage, I’m not sure how many states would have banned the death penalty or allowed same-sex marriage if these were left up to a democratic vote as opposed to judicial fiat, which is the usual avenue for liberals who only seem to want votes when they can win.[/quote]
Sure, you win
[quote]I do agree with you about this being about Obama’s promise of change. Most independents supported Obama wanted change. They wanted less partisanship. They wanted a government that would work for the folks. They wanted measured action to create jobs, to eliminate the deficit and keep their home values from crashing. They were fooled.[/quote]
The government works for capital, always has. Partisanship, would be there if there regardless. It’s a feature of the system. Deficits? The banks are very expensive and nobody is going to cut military spending. All you have left is social programs that are keeping unrest at bay. Try again.
[quote]America elected the least ready for high office person in my lifetime. A guy whose ideology and background screamed radical change by whatever means necessary. A guy whose lack of skills, other than to read a teleprompter, has abdicated leadership to Chicago pols and the likes of Pelosi and Reid. [/quote]
Obama doesn’t have that much power and ideology is questionable. He is kind of like an inkblot test. You see what you want to. Actions, or lack of, is louder than words.
[quote]This all was available to be known but the MSM failed us in the hate of W. They embraced this guy and looked the other way when all sorts of red flags about his background and lack of experience was there to be known.[/quote]
Nice talking point. Little relevance in the real world. His policies are a smidgen away from Bushes. Minus the corporate handout of a healthcare bill.
[quote]I been watching the Dem spin machines at work today. Some seem to understand what is happening not only in Mass but in recent elections in Virginia and in New Jersey. Most Dems though do not understand. Some are saying Obama hasn’t pushed change enough. What are they smoking?[/quote]
Dems are in a death spiral for the same reason I’ve said on this board for over a year. Because they can’t mask the fact that they are controlled by the same corporate entity the Rs are. The big difference is that is not what Ds vote for and hence lose interest or go into denial once they realize there is no difference. Whereas corporate favoritism over human needs is a platform for the right.
[quote]Folks are fed up. Pushing through anymore large programs will result in losing your job if you are an elected official, Dem or Rep. Ridiculing Tea Partyers is not wise strategy. The movement is grass roots and stronger than either party knows.[/quote]
Sure the fox news, sponsored by JP morgan and hosted by glen beck tea party. Yup, that’s about as grass roots as it comes. Suurre. haha. It’s corporate run grass roots.
[quote]As far as your second issue about good politicking. All elections sway on this aspect but Coakley was hamstrung by the issues at hand which were very unpopular with the voters. Brown would have beaten almost any Dem last night. If you don’t understand that, than you wil continue to lose to more and more Browns.[/quote]
Just repeating what I heard from actually dems in Mass that opted out from voting. What are you gonna believe actual people or what glen beck tells you.
Most thinking progressive lefts, understand Obama is a fancy speech and corporate handout healthcare bill away from Bush. He is the anti-change.
No doubt the Rs should gain a few. Not because Ds are flocking away en masse from Obama’s policies but because they don’t see a difference in policies. So why even bother if there is no reason to vote, other than their disdain for the Right.
How would monetary policy or foreign policy been different? You have both Gates and Bernake in either post that trajectories remained unchanged from one president to the next? What else has their been besides the dead insurance handout bill? Anything?
The states interaction with capital has always been there because that is the function of the state as an enforcer of Capital. Which is easily seen with it’s interaction with Wall Street. The asinine talking points coming from the right wing noise machine serves as the only major coalescing force for Obama’s support. And the right’s delusion is only matched by that on the left that sees Obama as an agent of change. Which is decreasing as the days go by and will serve as support for future Rs victory. *As I have said here for over a year*. This was easy to see coming. When every lefty on this board disagreed with me.
We have one party running the country and it’s the financial-media-corporate-military industrial complex. If *big* capital is challenged, the financial colony within our national Petri dish shape shifts into a Gila monster and squirts venom on the idea and shits money all over Capitol Hill. And just a hint, the heads of capital don’t care about yours and will legislate their way into it when they want it. What mask do you want your robber to wear. Government or corporate? You decide.
Now here is another prediction. The health care bill will be further amended . The insurance lobby, which spent 400 million writing the bill, will dictate some new compromise that will allow both parties to call victory. Unless near-term future economic problems arise. This will be echoed by the MSM. Just as MSDNC’s Chis Mathews was echoing that this was a referendum on the healthcare bill, for he is apart of the single corporate-media entity that Limbaugh is. Obama will be happy to sign anything at this point that he can call *reform” because of his lack of.[/quote]
1)Okay. I’ll take your word for that but you seemed to be right on the liberal spin talking points.
2)I’m not sure what saying I win means. Do agree or disagree that changes with regard to the death penalty and same-sex marriage have not come the voters?
3)I’d have to disagree with you here about the government working for capital. It has always worked for special interests imo. Although the special interests with the right connections may change from time to time. Capital has been screwed from time to time and it is being screwed right now by the declining dollar and potential for major inflation.
4)Are you really reduced to arguing that the Potus doesn’t have that much power? That is ridiculous.
5)Really. His politics a smidgen away from the Bushes?
I must have missed the health care push and the takeover of banks and the auto industry during the Bushes’ terms. I must have missed the kissing up the Unions during those twelve years.
I will give you that Obama’s policies with regard to Iraq and Afghanistan are remarkably similar to Ws. This is interesting since he pandered to the left and campaigned the middle of America on how bad these policies were. And that W and his people had them all wrong. Iraq is still on the W negotiated pullout timetable and Afghanistan is ready to be surged which if I recall correctly Obama opposed in Iraq.
Do you really question his ideological bent? It isn’t a case of just seeing what one wants to see. It is there for all to see if they care to look. Obama asked that we judge him by the people whom he surrounds himself. They are tax dodgers, a few radicals, some Marxists, a few black liberationists and many left wing social engineers.
And his actions underscore this, particularly, in support of universal health care and unions.6)Not sure I understand what you are saying here. If you are saying both party’s are similar and that corporate money controls how representatives on both sides vote. I agree.
7)I thought you just said the corporations play no favorites and that both sides are controlled by them. So why the JP Morgan comment about Fox or the knocking of Glenn Beck as if that is going to bother me?
Anyway believe what you want to believe, but if you don’t think this movement is real, you are mistaken. Imo for every person who shows up at Tea Party protests there are multiples who agree with them and will also vote to start being represented and to no longer be deceived.
8)I haven’t heard what Glenn Beck has to say on the subject. I was judging this by what I heard said by political commentators last night after the election and actual facts gleaned from pollsters. However, I would admit that I would give more credence to what is aid on Glenn Beck ahead of anecdotal hearsay from an anonymous internet poster, but that is me I guess.
9)Well. I certainly agree with much of what you wrote here except it isn’t certain. Is is likely butnot certain. If I may use an analogy, I think we are at the point where we are being visited by the ghost of Christmas future. The vision you have shown is disheartening. They are the vision of what will happen to us if folks don’t finally stand up, pay attention and demand change.
The folks in Mass did just that last night. The rest of us who really want to change how the government works and who it works for can stand up and use their votes to do so. The time is now.
January 20, 2010 at 1:50 PM #504383Participant[quote=Arraya][quote=felix]The spin machine is running overtime with your comments.[/quote]
I’ve been saying Obama will be a monumental dud since before his election, for the reasons I’ve stated. Much the opposite of what media was saying.
[quote]As far as the issues you raised as litmus tests for liberalism, the death penalty and same-sex marriage, I’m not sure how many states would have banned the death penalty or allowed same-sex marriage if these were left up to a democratic vote as opposed to judicial fiat, which is the usual avenue for liberals who only seem to want votes when they can win.[/quote]
Sure, you win
[quote]I do agree with you about this being about Obama’s promise of change. Most independents supported Obama wanted change. They wanted less partisanship. They wanted a government that would work for the folks. They wanted measured action to create jobs, to eliminate the deficit and keep their home values from crashing. They were fooled.[/quote]
The government works for capital, always has. Partisanship, would be there if there regardless. It’s a feature of the system. Deficits? The banks are very expensive and nobody is going to cut military spending. All you have left is social programs that are keeping unrest at bay. Try again.
[quote]America elected the least ready for high office person in my lifetime. A guy whose ideology and background screamed radical change by whatever means necessary. A guy whose lack of skills, other than to read a teleprompter, has abdicated leadership to Chicago pols and the likes of Pelosi and Reid. [/quote]
Obama doesn’t have that much power and ideology is questionable. He is kind of like an inkblot test. You see what you want to. Actions, or lack of, is louder than words.
[quote]This all was available to be known but the MSM failed us in the hate of W. They embraced this guy and looked the other way when all sorts of red flags about his background and lack of experience was there to be known.[/quote]
Nice talking point. Little relevance in the real world. His policies are a smidgen away from Bushes. Minus the corporate handout of a healthcare bill.
[quote]I been watching the Dem spin machines at work today. Some seem to understand what is happening not only in Mass but in recent elections in Virginia and in New Jersey. Most Dems though do not understand. Some are saying Obama hasn’t pushed change enough. What are they smoking?[/quote]
Dems are in a death spiral for the same reason I’ve said on this board for over a year. Because they can’t mask the fact that they are controlled by the same corporate entity the Rs are. The big difference is that is not what Ds vote for and hence lose interest or go into denial once they realize there is no difference. Whereas corporate favoritism over human needs is a platform for the right.
[quote]Folks are fed up. Pushing through anymore large programs will result in losing your job if you are an elected official, Dem or Rep. Ridiculing Tea Partyers is not wise strategy. The movement is grass roots and stronger than either party knows.[/quote]
Sure the fox news, sponsored by JP morgan and hosted by glen beck tea party. Yup, that’s about as grass roots as it comes. Suurre. haha. It’s corporate run grass roots.
[quote]As far as your second issue about good politicking. All elections sway on this aspect but Coakley was hamstrung by the issues at hand which were very unpopular with the voters. Brown would have beaten almost any Dem last night. If you don’t understand that, than you wil continue to lose to more and more Browns.[/quote]
Just repeating what I heard from actually dems in Mass that opted out from voting. What are you gonna believe actual people or what glen beck tells you.
Most thinking progressive lefts, understand Obama is a fancy speech and corporate handout healthcare bill away from Bush. He is the anti-change.
No doubt the Rs should gain a few. Not because Ds are flocking away en masse from Obama’s policies but because they don’t see a difference in policies. So why even bother if there is no reason to vote, other than their disdain for the Right.
How would monetary policy or foreign policy been different? You have both Gates and Bernake in either post that trajectories remained unchanged from one president to the next? What else has their been besides the dead insurance handout bill? Anything?
The states interaction with capital has always been there because that is the function of the state as an enforcer of Capital. Which is easily seen with it’s interaction with Wall Street. The asinine talking points coming from the right wing noise machine serves as the only major coalescing force for Obama’s support. And the right’s delusion is only matched by that on the left that sees Obama as an agent of change. Which is decreasing as the days go by and will serve as support for future Rs victory. *As I have said here for over a year*. This was easy to see coming. When every lefty on this board disagreed with me.
We have one party running the country and it’s the financial-media-corporate-military industrial complex. If *big* capital is challenged, the financial colony within our national Petri dish shape shifts into a Gila monster and squirts venom on the idea and shits money all over Capitol Hill. And just a hint, the heads of capital don’t care about yours and will legislate their way into it when they want it. What mask do you want your robber to wear. Government or corporate? You decide.
Now here is another prediction. The health care bill will be further amended . The insurance lobby, which spent 400 million writing the bill, will dictate some new compromise that will allow both parties to call victory. Unless near-term future economic problems arise. This will be echoed by the MSM. Just as MSDNC’s Chis Mathews was echoing that this was a referendum on the healthcare bill, for he is apart of the single corporate-media entity that Limbaugh is. Obama will be happy to sign anything at this point that he can call *reform” because of his lack of.[/quote]
1)Okay. I’ll take your word for that but you seemed to be right on the liberal spin talking points.
2)I’m not sure what saying I win means. Do agree or disagree that changes with regard to the death penalty and same-sex marriage have not come the voters?
3)I’d have to disagree with you here about the government working for capital. It has always worked for special interests imo. Although the special interests with the right connections may change from time to time. Capital has been screwed from time to time and it is being screwed right now by the declining dollar and potential for major inflation.
4)Are you really reduced to arguing that the Potus doesn’t have that much power? That is ridiculous.
5)Really. His politics a smidgen away from the Bushes?
I must have missed the health care push and the takeover of banks and the auto industry during the Bushes’ terms. I must have missed the kissing up the Unions during those twelve years.
I will give you that Obama’s policies with regard to Iraq and Afghanistan are remarkably similar to Ws. This is interesting since he pandered to the left and campaigned the middle of America on how bad these policies were. And that W and his people had them all wrong. Iraq is still on the W negotiated pullout timetable and Afghanistan is ready to be surged which if I recall correctly Obama opposed in Iraq.
Do you really question his ideological bent? It isn’t a case of just seeing what one wants to see. It is there for all to see if they care to look. Obama asked that we judge him by the people whom he surrounds himself. They are tax dodgers, a few radicals, some Marxists, a few black liberationists and many left wing social engineers.
And his actions underscore this, particularly, in support of universal health care and unions.6)Not sure I understand what you are saying here. If you are saying both party’s are similar and that corporate money controls how representatives on both sides vote. I agree.
7)I thought you just said the corporations play no favorites and that both sides are controlled by them. So why the JP Morgan comment about Fox or the knocking of Glenn Beck as if that is going to bother me?
Anyway believe what you want to believe, but if you don’t think this movement is real, you are mistaken. Imo for every person who shows up at Tea Party protests there are multiples who agree with them and will also vote to start being represented and to no longer be deceived.
8)I haven’t heard what Glenn Beck has to say on the subject. I was judging this by what I heard said by political commentators last night after the election and actual facts gleaned from pollsters. However, I would admit that I would give more credence to what is aid on Glenn Beck ahead of anecdotal hearsay from an anonymous internet poster, but that is me I guess.
9)Well. I certainly agree with much of what you wrote here except it isn’t certain. Is is likely butnot certain. If I may use an analogy, I think we are at the point where we are being visited by the ghost of Christmas future. The vision you have shown is disheartening. They are the vision of what will happen to us if folks don’t finally stand up, pay attention and demand change.
The folks in Mass did just that last night. The rest of us who really want to change how the government works and who it works for can stand up and use their votes to do so. The time is now.
January 20, 2010 at 1:50 PM #504472Participant[quote=Arraya][quote=felix]The spin machine is running overtime with your comments.[/quote]
I’ve been saying Obama will be a monumental dud since before his election, for the reasons I’ve stated. Much the opposite of what media was saying.
[quote]As far as the issues you raised as litmus tests for liberalism, the death penalty and same-sex marriage, I’m not sure how many states would have banned the death penalty or allowed same-sex marriage if these were left up to a democratic vote as opposed to judicial fiat, which is the usual avenue for liberals who only seem to want votes when they can win.[/quote]
Sure, you win
[quote]I do agree with you about this being about Obama’s promise of change. Most independents supported Obama wanted change. They wanted less partisanship. They wanted a government that would work for the folks. They wanted measured action to create jobs, to eliminate the deficit and keep their home values from crashing. They were fooled.[/quote]
The government works for capital, always has. Partisanship, would be there if there regardless. It’s a feature of the system. Deficits? The banks are very expensive and nobody is going to cut military spending. All you have left is social programs that are keeping unrest at bay. Try again.
[quote]America elected the least ready for high office person in my lifetime. A guy whose ideology and background screamed radical change by whatever means necessary. A guy whose lack of skills, other than to read a teleprompter, has abdicated leadership to Chicago pols and the likes of Pelosi and Reid. [/quote]
Obama doesn’t have that much power and ideology is questionable. He is kind of like an inkblot test. You see what you want to. Actions, or lack of, is louder than words.
[quote]This all was available to be known but the MSM failed us in the hate of W. They embraced this guy and looked the other way when all sorts of red flags about his background and lack of experience was there to be known.[/quote]
Nice talking point. Little relevance in the real world. His policies are a smidgen away from Bushes. Minus the corporate handout of a healthcare bill.
[quote]I been watching the Dem spin machines at work today. Some seem to understand what is happening not only in Mass but in recent elections in Virginia and in New Jersey. Most Dems though do not understand. Some are saying Obama hasn’t pushed change enough. What are they smoking?[/quote]
Dems are in a death spiral for the same reason I’ve said on this board for over a year. Because they can’t mask the fact that they are controlled by the same corporate entity the Rs are. The big difference is that is not what Ds vote for and hence lose interest or go into denial once they realize there is no difference. Whereas corporate favoritism over human needs is a platform for the right.
[quote]Folks are fed up. Pushing through anymore large programs will result in losing your job if you are an elected official, Dem or Rep. Ridiculing Tea Partyers is not wise strategy. The movement is grass roots and stronger than either party knows.[/quote]
Sure the fox news, sponsored by JP morgan and hosted by glen beck tea party. Yup, that’s about as grass roots as it comes. Suurre. haha. It’s corporate run grass roots.
[quote]As far as your second issue about good politicking. All elections sway on this aspect but Coakley was hamstrung by the issues at hand which were very unpopular with the voters. Brown would have beaten almost any Dem last night. If you don’t understand that, than you wil continue to lose to more and more Browns.[/quote]
Just repeating what I heard from actually dems in Mass that opted out from voting. What are you gonna believe actual people or what glen beck tells you.
Most thinking progressive lefts, understand Obama is a fancy speech and corporate handout healthcare bill away from Bush. He is the anti-change.
No doubt the Rs should gain a few. Not because Ds are flocking away en masse from Obama’s policies but because they don’t see a difference in policies. So why even bother if there is no reason to vote, other than their disdain for the Right.
How would monetary policy or foreign policy been different? You have both Gates and Bernake in either post that trajectories remained unchanged from one president to the next? What else has their been besides the dead insurance handout bill? Anything?
The states interaction with capital has always been there because that is the function of the state as an enforcer of Capital. Which is easily seen with it’s interaction with Wall Street. The asinine talking points coming from the right wing noise machine serves as the only major coalescing force for Obama’s support. And the right’s delusion is only matched by that on the left that sees Obama as an agent of change. Which is decreasing as the days go by and will serve as support for future Rs victory. *As I have said here for over a year*. This was easy to see coming. When every lefty on this board disagreed with me.
We have one party running the country and it’s the financial-media-corporate-military industrial complex. If *big* capital is challenged, the financial colony within our national Petri dish shape shifts into a Gila monster and squirts venom on the idea and shits money all over Capitol Hill. And just a hint, the heads of capital don’t care about yours and will legislate their way into it when they want it. What mask do you want your robber to wear. Government or corporate? You decide.
Now here is another prediction. The health care bill will be further amended . The insurance lobby, which spent 400 million writing the bill, will dictate some new compromise that will allow both parties to call victory. Unless near-term future economic problems arise. This will be echoed by the MSM. Just as MSDNC’s Chis Mathews was echoing that this was a referendum on the healthcare bill, for he is apart of the single corporate-media entity that Limbaugh is. Obama will be happy to sign anything at this point that he can call *reform” because of his lack of.[/quote]
1)Okay. I’ll take your word for that but you seemed to be right on the liberal spin talking points.
2)I’m not sure what saying I win means. Do agree or disagree that changes with regard to the death penalty and same-sex marriage have not come the voters?
3)I’d have to disagree with you here about the government working for capital. It has always worked for special interests imo. Although the special interests with the right connections may change from time to time. Capital has been screwed from time to time and it is being screwed right now by the declining dollar and potential for major inflation.
4)Are you really reduced to arguing that the Potus doesn’t have that much power? That is ridiculous.
5)Really. His politics a smidgen away from the Bushes?
I must have missed the health care push and the takeover of banks and the auto industry during the Bushes’ terms. I must have missed the kissing up the Unions during those twelve years.
I will give you that Obama’s policies with regard to Iraq and Afghanistan are remarkably similar to Ws. This is interesting since he pandered to the left and campaigned the middle of America on how bad these policies were. And that W and his people had them all wrong. Iraq is still on the W negotiated pullout timetable and Afghanistan is ready to be surged which if I recall correctly Obama opposed in Iraq.
Do you really question his ideological bent? It isn’t a case of just seeing what one wants to see. It is there for all to see if they care to look. Obama asked that we judge him by the people whom he surrounds himself. They are tax dodgers, a few radicals, some Marxists, a few black liberationists and many left wing social engineers.
And his actions underscore this, particularly, in support of universal health care and unions.6)Not sure I understand what you are saying here. If you are saying both party’s are similar and that corporate money controls how representatives on both sides vote. I agree.
7)I thought you just said the corporations play no favorites and that both sides are controlled by them. So why the JP Morgan comment about Fox or the knocking of Glenn Beck as if that is going to bother me?
Anyway believe what you want to believe, but if you don’t think this movement is real, you are mistaken. Imo for every person who shows up at Tea Party protests there are multiples who agree with them and will also vote to start being represented and to no longer be deceived.
8)I haven’t heard what Glenn Beck has to say on the subject. I was judging this by what I heard said by political commentators last night after the election and actual facts gleaned from pollsters. However, I would admit that I would give more credence to what is aid on Glenn Beck ahead of anecdotal hearsay from an anonymous internet poster, but that is me I guess.
9)Well. I certainly agree with much of what you wrote here except it isn’t certain. Is is likely butnot certain. If I may use an analogy, I think we are at the point where we are being visited by the ghost of Christmas future. The vision you have shown is disheartening. They are the vision of what will happen to us if folks don’t finally stand up, pay attention and demand change.
The folks in Mass did just that last night. The rest of us who really want to change how the government works and who it works for can stand up and use their votes to do so. The time is now.
January 20, 2010 at 1:50 PM #504722Participant[quote=Arraya][quote=felix]The spin machine is running overtime with your comments.[/quote]
I’ve been saying Obama will be a monumental dud since before his election, for the reasons I’ve stated. Much the opposite of what media was saying.
[quote]As far as the issues you raised as litmus tests for liberalism, the death penalty and same-sex marriage, I’m not sure how many states would have banned the death penalty or allowed same-sex marriage if these were left up to a democratic vote as opposed to judicial fiat, which is the usual avenue for liberals who only seem to want votes when they can win.[/quote]
Sure, you win
[quote]I do agree with you about this being about Obama’s promise of change. Most independents supported Obama wanted change. They wanted less partisanship. They wanted a government that would work for the folks. They wanted measured action to create jobs, to eliminate the deficit and keep their home values from crashing. They were fooled.[/quote]
The government works for capital, always has. Partisanship, would be there if there regardless. It’s a feature of the system. Deficits? The banks are very expensive and nobody is going to cut military spending. All you have left is social programs that are keeping unrest at bay. Try again.
[quote]America elected the least ready for high office person in my lifetime. A guy whose ideology and background screamed radical change by whatever means necessary. A guy whose lack of skills, other than to read a teleprompter, has abdicated leadership to Chicago pols and the likes of Pelosi and Reid. [/quote]
Obama doesn’t have that much power and ideology is questionable. He is kind of like an inkblot test. You see what you want to. Actions, or lack of, is louder than words.
[quote]This all was available to be known but the MSM failed us in the hate of W. They embraced this guy and looked the other way when all sorts of red flags about his background and lack of experience was there to be known.[/quote]
Nice talking point. Little relevance in the real world. His policies are a smidgen away from Bushes. Minus the corporate handout of a healthcare bill.
[quote]I been watching the Dem spin machines at work today. Some seem to understand what is happening not only in Mass but in recent elections in Virginia and in New Jersey. Most Dems though do not understand. Some are saying Obama hasn’t pushed change enough. What are they smoking?[/quote]
Dems are in a death spiral for the same reason I’ve said on this board for over a year. Because they can’t mask the fact that they are controlled by the same corporate entity the Rs are. The big difference is that is not what Ds vote for and hence lose interest or go into denial once they realize there is no difference. Whereas corporate favoritism over human needs is a platform for the right.
[quote]Folks are fed up. Pushing through anymore large programs will result in losing your job if you are an elected official, Dem or Rep. Ridiculing Tea Partyers is not wise strategy. The movement is grass roots and stronger than either party knows.[/quote]
Sure the fox news, sponsored by JP morgan and hosted by glen beck tea party. Yup, that’s about as grass roots as it comes. Suurre. haha. It’s corporate run grass roots.
[quote]As far as your second issue about good politicking. All elections sway on this aspect but Coakley was hamstrung by the issues at hand which were very unpopular with the voters. Brown would have beaten almost any Dem last night. If you don’t understand that, than you wil continue to lose to more and more Browns.[/quote]
Just repeating what I heard from actually dems in Mass that opted out from voting. What are you gonna believe actual people or what glen beck tells you.
Most thinking progressive lefts, understand Obama is a fancy speech and corporate handout healthcare bill away from Bush. He is the anti-change.
No doubt the Rs should gain a few. Not because Ds are flocking away en masse from Obama’s policies but because they don’t see a difference in policies. So why even bother if there is no reason to vote, other than their disdain for the Right.
How would monetary policy or foreign policy been different? You have both Gates and Bernake in either post that trajectories remained unchanged from one president to the next? What else has their been besides the dead insurance handout bill? Anything?
The states interaction with capital has always been there because that is the function of the state as an enforcer of Capital. Which is easily seen with it’s interaction with Wall Street. The asinine talking points coming from the right wing noise machine serves as the only major coalescing force for Obama’s support. And the right’s delusion is only matched by that on the left that sees Obama as an agent of change. Which is decreasing as the days go by and will serve as support for future Rs victory. *As I have said here for over a year*. This was easy to see coming. When every lefty on this board disagreed with me.
We have one party running the country and it’s the financial-media-corporate-military industrial complex. If *big* capital is challenged, the financial colony within our national Petri dish shape shifts into a Gila monster and squirts venom on the idea and shits money all over Capitol Hill. And just a hint, the heads of capital don’t care about yours and will legislate their way into it when they want it. What mask do you want your robber to wear. Government or corporate? You decide.
Now here is another prediction. The health care bill will be further amended . The insurance lobby, which spent 400 million writing the bill, will dictate some new compromise that will allow both parties to call victory. Unless near-term future economic problems arise. This will be echoed by the MSM. Just as MSDNC’s Chis Mathews was echoing that this was a referendum on the healthcare bill, for he is apart of the single corporate-media entity that Limbaugh is. Obama will be happy to sign anything at this point that he can call *reform” because of his lack of.[/quote]
1)Okay. I’ll take your word for that but you seemed to be right on the liberal spin talking points.
2)I’m not sure what saying I win means. Do agree or disagree that changes with regard to the death penalty and same-sex marriage have not come the voters?
3)I’d have to disagree with you here about the government working for capital. It has always worked for special interests imo. Although the special interests with the right connections may change from time to time. Capital has been screwed from time to time and it is being screwed right now by the declining dollar and potential for major inflation.
4)Are you really reduced to arguing that the Potus doesn’t have that much power? That is ridiculous.
5)Really. His politics a smidgen away from the Bushes?
I must have missed the health care push and the takeover of banks and the auto industry during the Bushes’ terms. I must have missed the kissing up the Unions during those twelve years.
I will give you that Obama’s policies with regard to Iraq and Afghanistan are remarkably similar to Ws. This is interesting since he pandered to the left and campaigned the middle of America on how bad these policies were. And that W and his people had them all wrong. Iraq is still on the W negotiated pullout timetable and Afghanistan is ready to be surged which if I recall correctly Obama opposed in Iraq.
Do you really question his ideological bent? It isn’t a case of just seeing what one wants to see. It is there for all to see if they care to look. Obama asked that we judge him by the people whom he surrounds himself. They are tax dodgers, a few radicals, some Marxists, a few black liberationists and many left wing social engineers.
And his actions underscore this, particularly, in support of universal health care and unions.6)Not sure I understand what you are saying here. If you are saying both party’s are similar and that corporate money controls how representatives on both sides vote. I agree.
7)I thought you just said the corporations play no favorites and that both sides are controlled by them. So why the JP Morgan comment about Fox or the knocking of Glenn Beck as if that is going to bother me?
Anyway believe what you want to believe, but if you don’t think this movement is real, you are mistaken. Imo for every person who shows up at Tea Party protests there are multiples who agree with them and will also vote to start being represented and to no longer be deceived.
8)I haven’t heard what Glenn Beck has to say on the subject. I was judging this by what I heard said by political commentators last night after the election and actual facts gleaned from pollsters. However, I would admit that I would give more credence to what is aid on Glenn Beck ahead of anecdotal hearsay from an anonymous internet poster, but that is me I guess.
9)Well. I certainly agree with much of what you wrote here except it isn’t certain. Is is likely butnot certain. If I may use an analogy, I think we are at the point where we are being visited by the ghost of Christmas future. The vision you have shown is disheartening. They are the vision of what will happen to us if folks don’t finally stand up, pay attention and demand change.
The folks in Mass did just that last night. The rest of us who really want to change how the government works and who it works for can stand up and use their votes to do so. The time is now.
January 20, 2010 at 2:13 PM #503851briansd1
Guest[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
As the old Chinese proverb/curse goes: “May you live in interesting times”.[/quote]
That’s all that I’m wishing for myself.
When I’m old and on my death bed, I hope that I’ll feel joy from having lived through interesting times, in good comfort.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Brown’s victory in MA is not necessarily a complete repudiation of Obama (as some in the GOP are claiming), but its also not a testimonial for either party. Rather, as Pup, Zeit and Arraya have astutely pointed out, its a recognition by individuals throughout this country that their vote does have power and the power to reject “Business as Usual”.
[/quote]I don’t see how voting for a Republican intent on keeping the health care status quo isn’t “business as usual”.
January 20, 2010 at 2:13 PM #503995Guest[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
As the old Chinese proverb/curse goes: “May you live in interesting times”.[/quote]
That’s all that I’m wishing for myself.
When I’m old and on my death bed, I hope that I’ll feel joy from having lived through interesting times, in good comfort.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Brown’s victory in MA is not necessarily a complete repudiation of Obama (as some in the GOP are claiming), but its also not a testimonial for either party. Rather, as Pup, Zeit and Arraya have astutely pointed out, its a recognition by individuals throughout this country that their vote does have power and the power to reject “Business as Usual”.
[/quote]I don’t see how voting for a Republican intent on keeping the health care status quo isn’t “business as usual”.
January 20, 2010 at 2:13 PM #504395Guest[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
As the old Chinese proverb/curse goes: “May you live in interesting times”.[/quote]
That’s all that I’m wishing for myself.
When I’m old and on my death bed, I hope that I’ll feel joy from having lived through interesting times, in good comfort.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Brown’s victory in MA is not necessarily a complete repudiation of Obama (as some in the GOP are claiming), but its also not a testimonial for either party. Rather, as Pup, Zeit and Arraya have astutely pointed out, its a recognition by individuals throughout this country that their vote does have power and the power to reject “Business as Usual”.
[/quote]I don’t see how voting for a Republican intent on keeping the health care status quo isn’t “business as usual”.
January 20, 2010 at 2:13 PM #504484Guest[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
As the old Chinese proverb/curse goes: “May you live in interesting times”.[/quote]
That’s all that I’m wishing for myself.
When I’m old and on my death bed, I hope that I’ll feel joy from having lived through interesting times, in good comfort.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Brown’s victory in MA is not necessarily a complete repudiation of Obama (as some in the GOP are claiming), but its also not a testimonial for either party. Rather, as Pup, Zeit and Arraya have astutely pointed out, its a recognition by individuals throughout this country that their vote does have power and the power to reject “Business as Usual”.
[/quote]I don’t see how voting for a Republican intent on keeping the health care status quo isn’t “business as usual”.
January 20, 2010 at 2:13 PM #504735Guest[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
As the old Chinese proverb/curse goes: “May you live in interesting times”.[/quote]
That’s all that I’m wishing for myself.
When I’m old and on my death bed, I hope that I’ll feel joy from having lived through interesting times, in good comfort.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Brown’s victory in MA is not necessarily a complete repudiation of Obama (as some in the GOP are claiming), but its also not a testimonial for either party. Rather, as Pup, Zeit and Arraya have astutely pointed out, its a recognition by individuals throughout this country that their vote does have power and the power to reject “Business as Usual”.
[/quote]I don’t see how voting for a Republican intent on keeping the health care status quo isn’t “business as usual”.
January 20, 2010 at 2:15 PM #503857Allan from Fallbrook
Participant[quote=pri_dk][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]This is some cool shit going on.[/quote]
Allan, this cool shit has been going on for over 200 years.
But I’m having trouble understanding why some see this recent election as any more significant than any other.
Maybe we are all in violent agreement: Our democratic process is a marvel of human accomplishment. It is a blessing that we all enjoy and should never take for granted.
Some elections lead to massive upheaval (e.g. Presidential election of 1860). Some are part of a series of shifts in national sentiment (congressional elections, 1994). Sometimes that sentiment shifts back in a few years.
Every election contributes to a change, sometimes suddenly, sometimes gradually. Like you mentioned, Jefferson said something to the effect that every election is a bloodless revolution by design. They are all important in some way because they are all part of a beautiful process that, despite it’s quirks, is masterfully designed and has proven itself to work for centuries.
Given that, I just don’t see why this particular election is a big deal. Perhaps history will prove otherwise, but I really think we are letting the media over-hype this. Yes, there are issues at stake. But, relative to our history, the current issues today are pretty ordinary.[/quote]
Pri: For me, this election is important for two reasons: (1) The voting public is showing what an engaged electorate, focused on specific issues, is capable of, and (2) People got off their asses, in the dead of a Massachusetts winter, and made a change.
For all the talk about Obama, and the bailouts, and failed policies, and Congress and all the rest of it, we are now seeing a truly populist movement take hold. And while I don’t think everything coming out of this is going to be good (populist movements have proven dangerous before and in many ways), much of it is and for the simple fact that its driven by individual voters.
No, I’m not talking about the Tea Party movement, or hyping this election up like the MSM/punditocracy/chattering classes are. Rather, I’m talking about a truly American phenomenon: One person, one vote and spread across this entire country and effecting change. Too many of us have forgotten why America remains such an amazing place. And, in spite of the Leftists like Obama and Brian telling us we’re not all that special, the fact is we are. American exceptionalism is a fact, like it or not, and all we need to do is take our country back, one vote at a time.
January 20, 2010 at 2:15 PM #504000Participant[quote=pri_dk][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]This is some cool shit going on.[/quote]
Allan, this cool shit has been going on for over 200 years.
But I’m having trouble understanding why some see this recent election as any more significant than any other.
Maybe we are all in violent agreement: Our democratic process is a marvel of human accomplishment. It is a blessing that we all enjoy and should never take for granted.
Some elections lead to massive upheaval (e.g. Presidential election of 1860). Some are part of a series of shifts in national sentiment (congressional elections, 1994). Sometimes that sentiment shifts back in a few years.
Every election contributes to a change, sometimes suddenly, sometimes gradually. Like you mentioned, Jefferson said something to the effect that every election is a bloodless revolution by design. They are all important in some way because they are all part of a beautiful process that, despite it’s quirks, is masterfully designed and has proven itself to work for centuries.
Given that, I just don’t see why this particular election is a big deal. Perhaps history will prove otherwise, but I really think we are letting the media over-hype this. Yes, there are issues at stake. But, relative to our history, the current issues today are pretty ordinary.[/quote]
Pri: For me, this election is important for two reasons: (1) The voting public is showing what an engaged electorate, focused on specific issues, is capable of, and (2) People got off their asses, in the dead of a Massachusetts winter, and made a change.
For all the talk about Obama, and the bailouts, and failed policies, and Congress and all the rest of it, we are now seeing a truly populist movement take hold. And while I don’t think everything coming out of this is going to be good (populist movements have proven dangerous before and in many ways), much of it is and for the simple fact that its driven by individual voters.
No, I’m not talking about the Tea Party movement, or hyping this election up like the MSM/punditocracy/chattering classes are. Rather, I’m talking about a truly American phenomenon: One person, one vote and spread across this entire country and effecting change. Too many of us have forgotten why America remains such an amazing place. And, in spite of the Leftists like Obama and Brian telling us we’re not all that special, the fact is we are. American exceptionalism is a fact, like it or not, and all we need to do is take our country back, one vote at a time.
January 20, 2010 at 2:15 PM #504400Participant[quote=pri_dk][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]This is some cool shit going on.[/quote]
Allan, this cool shit has been going on for over 200 years.
But I’m having trouble understanding why some see this recent election as any more significant than any other.
Maybe we are all in violent agreement: Our democratic process is a marvel of human accomplishment. It is a blessing that we all enjoy and should never take for granted.
Some elections lead to massive upheaval (e.g. Presidential election of 1860). Some are part of a series of shifts in national sentiment (congressional elections, 1994). Sometimes that sentiment shifts back in a few years.
Every election contributes to a change, sometimes suddenly, sometimes gradually. Like you mentioned, Jefferson said something to the effect that every election is a bloodless revolution by design. They are all important in some way because they are all part of a beautiful process that, despite it’s quirks, is masterfully designed and has proven itself to work for centuries.
Given that, I just don’t see why this particular election is a big deal. Perhaps history will prove otherwise, but I really think we are letting the media over-hype this. Yes, there are issues at stake. But, relative to our history, the current issues today are pretty ordinary.[/quote]
Pri: For me, this election is important for two reasons: (1) The voting public is showing what an engaged electorate, focused on specific issues, is capable of, and (2) People got off their asses, in the dead of a Massachusetts winter, and made a change.
For all the talk about Obama, and the bailouts, and failed policies, and Congress and all the rest of it, we are now seeing a truly populist movement take hold. And while I don’t think everything coming out of this is going to be good (populist movements have proven dangerous before and in many ways), much of it is and for the simple fact that its driven by individual voters.
No, I’m not talking about the Tea Party movement, or hyping this election up like the MSM/punditocracy/chattering classes are. Rather, I’m talking about a truly American phenomenon: One person, one vote and spread across this entire country and effecting change. Too many of us have forgotten why America remains such an amazing place. And, in spite of the Leftists like Obama and Brian telling us we’re not all that special, the fact is we are. American exceptionalism is a fact, like it or not, and all we need to do is take our country back, one vote at a time.
January 20, 2010 at 2:15 PM #504489Participant[quote=pri_dk][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]This is some cool shit going on.[/quote]
Allan, this cool shit has been going on for over 200 years.
But I’m having trouble understanding why some see this recent election as any more significant than any other.
Maybe we are all in violent agreement: Our democratic process is a marvel of human accomplishment. It is a blessing that we all enjoy and should never take for granted.
Some elections lead to massive upheaval (e.g. Presidential election of 1860). Some are part of a series of shifts in national sentiment (congressional elections, 1994). Sometimes that sentiment shifts back in a few years.
Every election contributes to a change, sometimes suddenly, sometimes gradually. Like you mentioned, Jefferson said something to the effect that every election is a bloodless revolution by design. They are all important in some way because they are all part of a beautiful process that, despite it’s quirks, is masterfully designed and has proven itself to work for centuries.
Given that, I just don’t see why this particular election is a big deal. Perhaps history will prove otherwise, but I really think we are letting the media over-hype this. Yes, there are issues at stake. But, relative to our history, the current issues today are pretty ordinary.[/quote]
Pri: For me, this election is important for two reasons: (1) The voting public is showing what an engaged electorate, focused on specific issues, is capable of, and (2) People got off their asses, in the dead of a Massachusetts winter, and made a change.
For all the talk about Obama, and the bailouts, and failed policies, and Congress and all the rest of it, we are now seeing a truly populist movement take hold. And while I don’t think everything coming out of this is going to be good (populist movements have proven dangerous before and in many ways), much of it is and for the simple fact that its driven by individual voters.
No, I’m not talking about the Tea Party movement, or hyping this election up like the MSM/punditocracy/chattering classes are. Rather, I’m talking about a truly American phenomenon: One person, one vote and spread across this entire country and effecting change. Too many of us have forgotten why America remains such an amazing place. And, in spite of the Leftists like Obama and Brian telling us we’re not all that special, the fact is we are. American exceptionalism is a fact, like it or not, and all we need to do is take our country back, one vote at a time.
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