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March 28, 2007 at 9:40 PM #8703March 28, 2007 at 10:07 PM #48663citydwellerParticipant
It’s been pretty obvious to me that the housing bubble has peaked and is on it’s way down. My question is, who is buying? Why would anyone buy right now? Whenever I see statistics that show that sales volume is declining, I’m just amazed that ANYONE is buying.
It’s obvious that all the investors/speculators have stopped buying, but is it first time buyers who are keeping the market alive at all?
March 28, 2007 at 10:24 PM #48668lindismithParticipantMy trainer just bought. He and his wife want to start a family, and they want a house to do it in. She works in a bank so is fully aware of the market. They plan on staying in it 10 years.
Another friend just bought a house. She is aware of the market situation, but she just divorced, and wants a home for her daughter. She plans on being in it for a while. (Incidentally, she makes a boat load of money, so if she had to move, I don’t think it would impact her much.)
Another guy I know is going through a divorce, and he just sold today. He tried to do a FSBO, but got no bites after 3 months. Finally he got a realtor friend to put it on the MLS. It sold in 1 week, and his realtor friend made 10K.
People want homes. They are sick of renting. They have made deals with themselves, ‘if it gets to x, then I’ll buy.’ That’s what people do.
My trainer is a first time buyer. My friend is not.
March 28, 2007 at 10:51 PM #48673citydwellerParticipantlindismith,
Do you know if they got 30 year fixed? I would be surprised if anyone these days would think an ARM is a good idea.IMO, the only buyers out there are people who have figured out how much they can afford, and want to buy a place that they plan to stay in for awhile, so will go 30 year fixed with no surprises. The old days of counting on 20% appreciation and refinancing in 3 years are behind us.
So it seems the pool of buyers will be shrinking rapidly.
March 28, 2007 at 10:51 PM #48675kewpParticipantNot everyone is underwater. Consider what I call the ‘lottery winners’, people that have just received a large inheritance, vested a bunch of options, or even indeed, won the lottery. How is buying an overpriced home any different than buying any other overpriced asset in these cases? Sure, its a lousy investment, but maybe they are buying it just to live in!
There will always be enough folks out there, even if credit dries up entirely, to buy homes. *Thats* the fundamental that will drive the deflation of the housing bubble and return the market to equilibrium.
Once all the desperate/forced sellers realize they will have to drop their prices, in some cases drastically, in order to attract what few buyers there are out there, will prices come down.
March 29, 2007 at 7:40 AM #48684LookoutBelowParticipantTrainer ? like in "Physical work out trainer" ?
Well, if a worker in that UN-lucrative field is still able to qualify for a home loan (arm) then we have NOT reached the bubble peak.
Anybody that purchases at the "top of the market" is a fool, anybody that does this AND knows he's doing this is psychopathic.
Emotional reasons such as "I hate to rent" or "Im buying for my 3 yr old daughter" are some of the ways that people are led to financial slaughter. ..Rational people have made a bunch of money before off of other people's irrational decisions to buy and own things, this is how low brow emotional buyers are quickly relieved of their money
March 29, 2007 at 9:14 AM #48695recordsclerkParticipantMy in-laws just sold their home. It took about 4 months to sell. They took it off the market at one time. When they put it back on the market it only took 2 weeks to get an offer. I think the price was more appropriate when they put it back on the market. The couple that bought the home got an 80/20 loan. They also negotiated seller to cover closing cost. My in-laws did not want to pay the closing cost, so buyer offered more for the purchase to cover the closing cost. This makes me believe that they didn’t have any down payment, including closing cost. I told my in-laws we could probably buy their home back in a couple of years for a $100k less.
March 29, 2007 at 9:58 AM #48697PerryChaseParticipantInteresting that many of the experts/officials are already calling a bottom. They are try to talk the market up and prevent a panic. Some buyers believe it and are jumping back into the market. Too bad for them as they’ll regret it.
Based on Jim the Realtor’s data it seem like it’s the higher end customers who are jumping back into the market. There are fools are every income levels.
We haven’t even started this down cycle yet. The 2-year ARM reset foreclosures haven’t even hit the MLS yet. We still have the 5-year ARM resets to watch. 2010 would be the earliest bottom, in my opinion. We can’t call a bottom until all the 2.4 million foreclosures predicted by the Center for Responsible Lending are wrapped-up.
Home loan defaults skyrocket in county
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20070329-9999-1n29default.htmlMarch 29, 2007 at 5:42 PM #487344plexownerParticipantPerryChase – I have been calling for a bottom in 2008-2010 but seeing the chart of ARM resets has caused me to re-think this date range
The chart shows that a huge chunk of ARMS are going to reset in both 2010 and 2011
A possible scenario I am considering – since most market moves end with high volume (greedy fools buying at the top and fearful fools selling at the bottom) it is possible that the 2010-2011 timeframe will be the high-volume end of the real estate decline
Anyone that is forced to sell in 2010/2011 will be selling into a market that has been soft/declining for 5 years already – not a good time to sell but their selling could create a real bottom (as opposed to the bottoms that have been called already and continue to be called)
As the Chinese say: “May you live in interesting times.”
March 29, 2007 at 6:15 PM #48735(former)FormerSanDieganParticipant4plexowner –
It’s possible that the effects of the second wave of ARM re-sets will be less than you suspect.
Consider that the second wave of ARM resets starts about 2-2.5 years from now and extends to about 5 years from now (… I think … I can’t find the chart right now). I believe that one potential outcome is that the effects of the first wave and the housing bust will have caused rates to drop by the time the second wave of ARM resets hit, giving relief to these folks. In some cases the adjustments may result in lower rates.
I think the second wave of ARM resets will have much less effect than the first. AT that point in time, it’ll be excess inventory hanging over more than ARM resets driving the market
Not saying that’s what will happen, just saying that it could be a consideration.
March 29, 2007 at 7:27 PM #487384plexownerParticipantHere’s a link to the mortgage reset chart
http://www.bubbleinfo.com/statistics-2007/2007/3/15/arm-reset-schedule.html
If I understand you, PerryChase, you are saying that because of lower interest rates the 2nd wave of ARMs will have more options for re-financing (and maybe a better market to sell into)
That seems reasonable with the caveat that lower interest rates don’t do much for the upside-down homedebtor
Correct me if I’m wrong here – the ARMs resetting in 2010/2011 are mostly 5 yr fix / 25 yr float and they originated in 2005/2006 ? some of them must be 7 and 10 year fixed ?
Looking at the chart I see that a significant portion of the ARMs resetting in 2010/2011 are Option ARMs – these loans are potentially neg-am so by 2010/2011 they could be ridiculously upside-down (depending on where market prices are)
My scenario for ARMageddon in 2010/2011 is based on two assumptions:
1. these ARMs originated in 2005/2006 (ie, peak prices and the peak of 100% financed, liar loans, etc)
2. at reset time most of these mortgages will be underwater (ie, the overall trend in real estate prices remains down between now and then)I like this idea of a final washout in prices because it goes along with what I understand about financial markets in general – ie, moves tend to finish on high volume – this may not be applicable to the real estate market since the ‘bottom’ is likely to last for several years (ie, basically flat for 2-3 yrs) while the overhang of inventory is worked off
~
As I write this, I am dismayed to remember having read today that one of the northeastern states is about to ban all current and upcoming foreclosures – because of actions like this it is hard to say what will really happen to the real estate market in coming years – perhaps someday we will have free markets …
March 29, 2007 at 7:51 PM #48739citydwellerParticipantHow can they “ban” foreclosures?
And if they do, wouldn’t that encourage everyone to just stop making payments? If you can’t be foreclosed on, why make payments?
March 29, 2007 at 8:19 PM #48740AnonymousGuestThat’s a good one, ‘ARMageddon.’
FSD, I’d say there’s a good chance that rates will be higher in ’10-’11. We’ll be in the middle of a depression, but with our big socialist state, interventionalist political class, whining Baby Boomers, etc., on top of our huge debt, the Feds will have to pay top dollar (interest rates) to get more suckers to buy T-bills/notes/bonds to finance government ‘services.’
This depression will be different from the depression of the ’30s, given that governments have already borrowed to the hilt. This feels more like a collapse of the dollar depression, not the ‘nobody wants to spend their few gold-backed dollars depression.’
Weimar Republic, here we come. Awful.
March 30, 2007 at 6:54 AM #487444plexownerParticipantHere’s an article about potential foreclosure ban in Mass – the proposed legislation is to “protect thousands of homeowners who may have been victimized by predatory lenders”
http://www.southcoasttoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070328/NEWS/703280337/1011/TOWN10
March 30, 2007 at 8:03 AM #48747kicksavedaveParticipantThis Massachusetts thing is blown out of proportion. They are suggesting laws to give court oversight to the forclosure process, not to BAN them altogether. 30 other states require court approval on the foreclosure, MASS does not, but is trying to legislate that in. Its not a big deal.
That’s a far cry from saying they are trying to BAN forclosures. They are not doing that. That would be tantamount to telling the banks who are not getting paid “tough noogies” while telling borrowers who aren’t paying “don’t bother”.
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