OT: Dalai Lama

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Submitted by moneymaker on June 17, 2017 - 3:43am

Went to hear him speak the other day and was amazed by 2 things I heard. In a preview of National Geographic program he said he was not the same spirit as the 13th Dalai Lama, and also that he thought it would be a good idea to move the UN to Moscow. Peace has not seemed to work in his peoples favor, so unlike Ghandi and Martin Luther King, peaceful resistance has not seemed to work. Perhaps there is still hope, I would love to see the day that he could return to Tibet without fear of the Chinese government, before that could happen I think the Chinese government would have to change radically. Perhaps he could make a pilgrimage home while being protected by UN troops.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on June 17, 2017 - 6:23am.

it was too hot.

started an hour late even though dl wakes up at 3 am.

all in all, i couldnt really make any sense of his message.

the chinese student protestors i could hear sound like they havent been properly indoctrinated by the liberal arts faculty. maybe we are not reallyopening up foreigner minds to opposing viewpoints .

sure does seem like a prime example of the benefits of being armed to the teeth. if tibet could get a do over with lots of us arms sales in the late 40s...knowing what they know now....id urge them to load up on bombs and land mine the perimeter. kill every last invader...give every man woman and child a gun and fight to the death.

videoscreen said:

The Dalai Lama is fascinated by science and has said that if he had not become a monk, he would have become an engineer.

Submitted by ocrenter on June 17, 2017 - 7:13am.

The guy is 82...

Despite his title, some cognitive decline has to be present.

Did they subtitle the whole thing? I wonder if there's a transcript from the speech.

As for the Chinese students, the brainwashing runs deep into their core. They invaded and slaughtered the Tibetans yet they feel their rights are infringed upon.

The extreme nationalism and absolute indignation toward anything against their indoctrinated viewpoint should scare anyone. The fact that China's best and brightest thinkers are out there showing off the fruit of that brainwashing should frighten you to no end.

This is what will replace America in a few decades? You think Nazi Germany was bad? Oh boy...

Submitted by moneymaker on June 17, 2017 - 9:46am.

Here is link to speech going on now http://fox5sandiego.com/2017/06/17/dalai...

Submitted by mixxalot on June 17, 2017 - 4:46pm.

I agree the Chicoms did great evil to the Tibetan people and priests for no good reason whatsoever. It is truly frightening how mind control many of them are from mainland China. On the other hand, friends from Singapore and Taiwan are fantastic and do not have the hardcore red commie mindset.

Submitted by ocrenter on June 17, 2017 - 4:52pm.

mixxalot wrote:
I agree the Chicoms did great evil to the Tibetan people and priests for no good reason whatsoever. It is truly frightening how mind control many of them are from mainland China. On the other hand, friends from Singapore and Taiwan are fantastic and do not have the hardcore red commie mindset.

Not quite sure I get your point.

Friends from Singapore are Singaporeans.

Friends from Taiwan are Taiwanese.

What do Singaporeans and Taiwanese have to do with China?

Submitted by harvey on June 18, 2017 - 8:38am.

ocrenter wrote:
As for the Chinese students, the brainwashing runs deep into their core. They invaded and slaughtered the Tibetans yet they feel their rights are infringed upon.

As for the Americans, the brainwashing runs deep into their core. They invaded and slaughtered the Iraqis yet they feel they are the victims of terrorism.

Quote:
The extreme nationalism and absolute indignation toward anything against their indoctrinated viewpoint should scare anyone.

Yep.

Submitted by ocrenter on June 18, 2017 - 9:24am.

harvey wrote:
ocrenter wrote:
As for the Chinese students, the brainwashing runs deep into their core. They invaded and slaughtered the Tibetans yet they feel their rights are infringed upon.

As for the Americans, the brainwashing runs deep into their core. They invaded and slaughtered the Iraqis yet they feel they are the victims of terrorism.

Quote:
The extreme nationalism and absolute indignation toward anything against their indoctrinated viewpoint should scare anyone.

Yep.

Quite trying to compare the two.

One system actually allows for you to say what you just said.

Under the other system you would be hearing a knock on the door by now.

Submitted by harvey on June 18, 2017 - 3:00pm.

ocrenter wrote:
Quite trying to compare the two.

One system actually allows for you to say what you just said.

Under the other system you would be hearing a knock on the door by now.

Your post was about "brainwashing" and how it is used to rationalize the conquest of other countries.

And on that subject I absolutely will compare "the two:" Both the US and China have a lot of blood on their hands.

One of the defining themes of American history is the use of military force to gain territory and resources. China's annexation of Tibet is only comparable to maybe one of our smaller wars that most Americans today never even know about.

As for personal freedoms, yeah we've got China beat by a longshot on that one. But I still don't see the US giving California back to Mexico anytime soon.

Submitted by ocrenter on June 18, 2017 - 5:13pm.

harvey wrote:
ocrenter wrote:
Quite trying to compare the two.

One system actually allows for you to say what you just said.

Under the other system you would be hearing a knock on the door by now.

Your post was about "brainwashing" and how it is used to rationalize the conquest of other countries.

And on that subject I absolutely will compare "the two:" Both the US and China have a lot of blood on their hands.

One of the defining themes of American history is the use of military force to gain territory and resources. China's annexation of Tibet is only comparable to maybe one of our smaller wars that most Americans today never even know about.

As for personal freedoms, yeah we've got China beat by a longshot on that one. But I still don't see the US giving California back to Mexico anytime soon.

Personal freedom and protection of basic rights including speech is huge when you make these comparisons.

These freedoms allow for opposition to the policies you are complaining about.

Of course the Iraq war was unjust and wrong, and most Americans would agree this was a major blunder. This would not happen in China, where discussions of prior errors and mistakes are strictly prohibited. Remember that if you ever try to type in June 4th on Bidu in China.

Of course large amount of American land came under control through force and underhanded dealings, but can you imagine the same methodology employed by an authoritarian country without opposing viewpoints operating under the premise that the world has done it wrong and regional hegemony is the only way to right that wrong?

America is by no means innocent and altruistic, but I would simply caution about your fanboy crush on China.

Submitted by ocrenter on June 18, 2017 - 8:08pm.

harvey wrote:
But I still don't see the US giving California back to Mexico anytime soon.

As for this.

Why don't you find all of the descendents of Californians back when the US annexed CA and put them to a vote. How many of them would like CA to become Alta California, the 32nd state of Mexico?

If you do the same with Tibetans, I can guarantee you how they'll vote.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on June 18, 2017 - 10:06pm.

ocrenter wrote:

Why don't you find all of the descendents of Californians back when the US annexed CA and put them to a vote. How many of them would like CA to become Alta California, the 32nd state of Mexico?

If you do the same with Tibetans, I can guarantee you how they'll vote.

ocrenter, the residents of California back then were hounded to sell their properties, more often than not at gunpoint.

Why don't you give China 200 more years in Tibet? By that time highspeed trains will crisscross the region and high rise condo in Lhasa will be worth more than houses in middle America.

I haven't been to Tibet yet, but I have been to Xinjiang. The local Uyghur people don't particularly care for Chinese rule but they prefer the prosperity of China over next door kazhakstan. There are gleaming new airports and developments thanks to China. Urumqi airport is better than San Diego's, Carrefour hypermakets and plenty of consumer goods. And the uyghurs benefit from autonomous laws such as the right to carry knives on their belts, and affirmative action admissions to China's top universities.

Submitted by ocrenter on June 19, 2017 - 6:49am.

FlyerInHi wrote:

ocrenter, the residents of California back then were hounded to sell their properties, more often than not at gunpoint.

Why don't you give China 200 more years in Tibet? By that time highspeed trains will crisscross the region and high rise condo in Lhasa will be worth more than houses in middle America.

Just because America did it does not mean China can do it now. This is classic Chinese rhetoric. Every time there's another Uyghur arrest, or another report of discrimination, or statistic of economic apartheid, China just simply repeat the same argument you are posing: "well you guys did it years ago too."

btw, I agree, give China a few more years and Tibet would be fully integrated. Potala Palace in Lhasa would still be there, but I doubt Tibetan would even be spoken and I doubt you can even tell a "Tibetan" apart from a Han Chinese anymore. The assimilation process and the complete destruction of thousand year plus civilization would be fully complete. You want to give China more time to complete the process?

FlyerInHi wrote:

I haven't been to Tibet yet, but I have been to Xinjiang. The local Uyghur people don't particularly care for Chinese rule but they prefer the prosperity of China over next door kazhakstan. There are gleaming new airports and developments thanks to China. Urumqi airport is better than San Diego's, Carrefour hypermakets and plenty of consumer goods. And the uyghurs benefit from autonomous laws such as the right to carry knives on their belts, and affirmative action admissions to China's top universities.

Your understanding of the world is so skin deep. Did you really just say the subjugation of 10 million people, the systematic suppression of their language, the outright discrimination and frequent jailing without charges are all ok because there's a shiny new airport, a few Carrefour, and there's a written policy for affirmative action?

China actually arranged a full last minute tourist boycott of an entire city just because somewhere within that city there was a film festival where a Uyghur film was being featured. This is the extent of the media crackdown.

As for the Uyghurs and where they get their inspirations. East Turkestan independence movement started gaining momentum primarily due to Kazakhstan's independence. That's when China cracked down even more and started transporting even more Han Chinese migrants to Xinjiang.

you are essentially turning a blind eye to all of the human rights abuses, ethnic cleansing and assimilation policies as well as environmental destruction happening all over China. When did you become part of their on-line 50 cent army?

Submitted by scaredyclassic on June 19, 2017 - 7:40am.

free tibet.

Submitted by ocrenter on June 19, 2017 - 8:23am.

scaredyclassic wrote:
free tibet.

Not according to Brian. I think he was protesting the Dalai Lama along with the Chinese students.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on June 19, 2017 - 9:49am.

ocrenter wrote:

When did you become part of their on-line 50 cent army?

I'm not defending China. But, as Harvey mentioned, there is moral equivalence with what we do. Think we're that innocent? A lot of the stuff we do is not for human rights but as tools to destabilize and contain adversaries.

What we do in the name of national security is worse than China's rule over Tibet. For example, Afghanistan, Iraq right now.

I've been around the world enough to know that people want economic prosperity. China is doing a great job at economic development.

BTW, a lot of support for America around the world is because we're rich and people hope for trickle down. When we're relatively less rich, support will decrease. Simple economics.

BTW, unlike Tibet, foreigners can travel independently in Xinjiang. Go visit, it's very prosperous compared to neighboring central Asian countries.

When you talk about taking a vote in California... the reason people would want to remain part of the USA is because we're rich. If Mexico were 10 times richer, people would vote to join Mexico. And if the USA becomes deplorable country, there will be CalExit so we can join Mexico, Canada, China and Pacific countries in a free trade agreement. We would accept college graduates from China and block high school dropout from Kansas who will be the new illegals.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on June 19, 2017 - 11:51am.

im just sad the peaceful buddhists in tibet got tortured and squashed.

Submitted by ocrenter on June 19, 2017 - 12:32pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:

I'm not defending China. But, as Harvey mentioned, there is moral equivalence with what we do. Think we're that innocent? A lot of the stuff we do is not for human rights but as tools to destabilize and contain adversaries.

That is exactly what Trump says. Glad you are in agreement with Trump.

No one is looking at the US as an altruistic angelic figure out to rid the world of injustice. But ultimately there is still free discussion in regard to US policy.

China on the other hand is doing everything within a black box, and all criticism are silenced. In addition, there's a broad based national strategy to cook up nationalistic sentiment, such as the multiple WWII movies and TV shows generated every few months to fire up anti-Japanese nationalism.

The point here is whatever fault US has, China can be so much worse.

FlyerInHi wrote:

I've been around the world enough to know that people want economic prosperity. China is doing a great job at economic development.

So you saw economic prosperity for Uyghurs AND Han Chinese? Or you just saw the fancy new buildings used by the Han Chinese?

Again, given a vote, do you really think the Uyghurs will vote to stay under China's rule? Again, if they are truly volunteering to stay as a member of the large family of ethnic groups under the leadership of CCP, why bother suppressing speech and lock away dissent? This is quite different compared to Californians wishing to stay as part of the union.

I know your answer, just give China another 200 years so the Uyghurs would be no more.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on June 19, 2017 - 8:43pm.

think about how much of a DICK those turdly chinese exchange students nust be to protest the freaking dalai lama, one of the most chill bros of our era.

what a bunch of TOOLS. hope they never ever get laid on the USA.

Submitted by spdrun on June 19, 2017 - 8:48pm.

Nah, I hope they get laid ... by meth-addled Trump supporters who also have an antibiotic-resistant strain of VD.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on June 19, 2017 - 9:08pm.

ok then, i pray they get Cs and bring ignominy and shame upon their entire family.

dalai lama ruins our joy!!!

http://ucsdguardian.org/2017/02/07/op-ed...

Submitted by ocrenter on June 19, 2017 - 9:38pm.

scaredyclassic wrote:
ok then, i pray they get Cs and bring ignominy and shame upon their entire family.

dalai lama ruins our joy!!!

http://ucsdguardian.org/2017/02/07/op-ed-why-i-wont-accept-the-dalai-lama-as-a-commencement-speaker/

"the Dalai Lama spent his whole life trying to separate Tibet from the mainland of China, regardless of how much privilege and freedom the government offered the people of Tibet. His conflict with our government caused property loss, deaths of innocent people and panic among the general public"

Spoken like the Chinese fanboys represented here by Brian and Harvey.

What is up with these Tibetans. You give them all these privileges and freedom, and all they do is self immolation by the hundreds.

Well, as Brian said it best, give China 200 more years and there would not be any problematic Tibetans left to cause panic and property loss.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on June 19, 2017 - 9:50pm.

the peaceful buddhists generally get fucked. ugh. fucking bastards.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on June 20, 2017 - 2:08am.

ocrenter, I'm no China fanboy. In fact, I think we need to counter China in trade, commerce, diplomacy, education, etc.. For example we should have ratified TPP to give pacific countries an alternative to trade with China. I'm just trying to be objective.

Unless we are ready to go all to way for Tibet to achieve independence, let's not use them to sow chaos. That just causes suffering all around.

I'm well aware of Xinjiang. I actually have a Uighur friend who is a trade representative for China (went to Beijing University, then studied in USA, all on government scholarship). Uighurs who are educated do very well in China. They look Western but are Chinese citizens so they can actually gain professional status fairly easily -- accountants, architects, lawyers, middle managers, etc..

In decades past, the hinterland of China was not developed, so there were separatist movements. But now, as wealth spreads westward, the people are actually happy with their lot in the PRC. If given a vote, I'm confident Uighurs would stay in the PRC because they can see their own prosperity compared to their cousins in Central Asia. But, as with Brexit, you never know with a plebiscite, and China will never risk it.

Don't believe all the propaganda you hear in the Western press. They parrot the voices of dissidents who don't represent the people. (compare to Iraq where the US brought back Ahmed Chalabi and Iraqi exiles who the people didn't even know or recognize).

Even Russian towns near China are now dying with envy at the prosperity they see across the border. What a change from decades past when Russia was richer!

Same goes for Tibet. People there now live much better than across the border in India. With tourism and highspeed rail, Llasa real estate probably increased 5 fold in a decade, a great benefit to local property owners.

We may romanticize Buddhism and monks in robes living serene lives, but the people in Tibet want electric appliances, cars, central heating, and consumer products just like Americans. China is providing that.

BTW, I'm a big fan of Buddhism. Find happiness within! So in that regards, scaredy is right. The Dalai Lama is one of the most chill bros of our era.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on June 20, 2017 - 8:07am.

the people of tibet are not the same post conquering. would those original buddhist folk want a consumer society imposed on them.

all is change, though, and suffering.

and desire

Submitted by ocrenter on June 20, 2017 - 8:54am.

scaredyclassic wrote:
the peaceful buddhists generally get fucked. ugh. fucking bastards.

Paraphrasing the UCSD Chinese graduates: The Tibetans are given the privilege and freedom of getting fucked. Instead of being grateful, they cry and scream instead, creating panic amongst the general public.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on June 20, 2017 - 9:30am.

ocrenter wrote:

Paraphrasing the UCSD Chinese graduates: The Tibetans are given the privilege and freedom of getting fucked. Instead of being grateful, they cry and scream instead, creating panic amongst the general public.

Isn't that the same argument Whites use against Blacks in USA. We give them affirmative action, all kinds of benefits... and instead of being grateful, they choose to be criminals causing chaos in society. Ok, not all Whites, but you get the general idea.

Minorities are oppressed in many ways in all societies.

BTW, a lot of Han Chinese feel that the government is showering benefits and development money in Tibet while ignoring other areas in need. Financially, Tibet is getting way more than it contributes in output.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on June 20, 2017 - 9:47am.

scaredyclassic wrote:
the people of tibet are not the same post conquering. would those original buddhist folk want a consumer society imposed on them.

all is change, though, and suffering.

and desire

For sure.

There is no answer to that however. It's the eternal pursuit happiness. Buddhist philosophy is very helpful. Control desires and fnd happiness within.

Right now, the objective measures of wellbeing are money/GDP, and material possessions, objective measures we developed in the west.

Own a car? Check
Have air conditioning? Check
Went to university? Check
Have savings? Check
Modern sewer system? Check
Electricity to all households? Check
Refrigerator for all? Check

Submitted by ocrenter on June 20, 2017 - 6:51pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:

Isn't that the same argument Whites use against Blacks in USA. We give them affirmative action, all kinds of benefits... and instead of being grateful, they choose to be criminals causing chaos in society. Ok, not all Whites, but you get the general idea.

Minorities are oppressed in many ways in all societies.

BTW, a lot of Han Chinese feel that the government is showering benefits and development money in Tibet while ignoring other areas in need. Financially, Tibet is getting way more than it contributes in output.

So based on that parallel, expat US students would be protesting a commencement speech by MLK if he is alive and barred by the US government?

Minorities are oppressed, especially in a colonial relationship with the ruling government. Uighurs and Tibetans are colonized people whose language and customs are systematically erased through slow and gradual assimilation.

Glad you have Uighur friends that benefited from Chinese rule. Such is the strategy of the colonizers throughout history. I do have to give it to you, you really do fight a valiant fight for colonialism and oppression of minorities.

Submitted by ocrenter on June 20, 2017 - 6:53pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:
scaredyclassic wrote:
the people of tibet are not the same post conquering. would those original buddhist folk want a consumer society imposed on them.

all is change, though, and suffering.

and desire

For sure.

There is no answer to that however. It's the eternal pursuit happiness. Buddhist philosophy is very helpful. Control desires and fnd happiness within.

Right now, the objective measures of wellbeing are money/GDP, and material possessions, objective measures we developed in the west.

Own a car? Check
Have air conditioning? Check
Went to university? Check
Have savings? Check
Modern sewer system? Check
Electricity to all households? Check
Refrigerator for all? Check

Cars, AC, electricity, and refrigerator are fleeing, would you like to exchange your language and culture and identity for a washer and dryer?

Submitted by scaredyclassic on June 20, 2017 - 7:52pm.

A mess of pottage is something immediately attractive but of little value taken foolishly and carelessly in exchange for something more distant and perhaps less tangible but immensely more valuable. The phrase alludes to Esau's sale of his birthright for a meal ("mess") of lentil stew ("pottage") in Genesis 25:29-34 and connotes shortsightedness and misplaced priorities.

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