Is the “Vision” unrealistic for Bay Park & Bay Ho?

[FlyerInHi]

After over a century of the automobile, there is clear establishment bias against public transport.

Came back from NY, the capital of public transport in America. Even at La Guardia (the third world airport Joe Biden was talking about), the terminal is not connected to the train. The bus is some disorganized stop outside the terminal. No signage or clear instructions. You have to take the bus for like 20 minutes (not including waiting time) then connect to the train.

In San Francisco, it took several decades of polemic just to connect SFO to BARt.

In Vegas, they want to connect the monorail to the airport but the taxi and limo unions are against it.

40 million visitors per year… most of whom go to the strip. The monorail stopping along the strip makes the most sense…. but no can do.

They finally started a bus route. But the bus stop (not even a proper station with signage) is on level zero hidden away. Only the locals with a few tourists ride the bus.

When I have time, I make it a point to ride public transport just to people watch. But in general, public transport in America seems to be purposely made to not be convenient.

[spdrun]

Came back from NY, the capital of public transport in America. Even at La Guardia (the third world airport Joe Biden was talking about), the terminal is not connected to the train. The bus is some disorganized stop outside the terminal. No signage or clear instructions. You have to take the bus for like 20 minutes (not including waiting time) then connect to the train.

#1: John Bidet and other Americans who refer to LaGuardia as a third-world airport are totally off-base. It’s. Not. Really. An. International. Airport.

It’s a domestic/local airport in a big city. London City Airport, LA/Burbank, and the former Berlin Tempelhof didn’t have hotels, golf courses, dancing girls, nor horse racing on the airport grounds either.

#2: I like it dirty and slightly chaotic. It keeps the Midwestern tourons looking for a “good experience” going to Newark or JFK. Which in turn keeps security lines at LGA relatively short, fares relatively low (under $300 r/t to the West Coast is possible), and the rabble out.

#3: Public transport: I suspect there will eventually be a subway extension. The bigger issue is the crappy public transport to JFK and Newark. You have to change to a monorail vs getting a one-seat ride from Midtown. Why?

In the case of JFK, pissing contest between MTA, which runs the subways and Port Authority, which runs JFK and the monorial. In the case of Newark, who knows? PATH runs from 33rd St. to Newark Penn Station. Extension to the airport via an elevated viaduct over the Northeast Corridor line was perfectly plausible. Perhaps not-in-my-backyard types, afraid that their view of beautiful downtown Newark would be ruined forever.

THAT’s the problem with public transport in the US. A unified policy is sorely lacking.

Update: apparently, they’re planning to extend the PATH system to Newark Airport. AFTER!!!! building the monorail. Yay for spending bucks on the same project twice — got to love government accounting.

[FlyerInHi]

Come on, Spd. NYC is the showcase city of America. JFK is not much better.

NYC should have infrastructure to match it’s status as a top city. Think back of when the pan am terminal opened. We were the top dog back then.

[joec]

[quote=FlyerInHi]Come on, Spd. NYC is the showcase city of America. JFK is not much better.

NYC should have infrastructure to match it’s status as a top city. Think back of when the pan am terminal opened. We were the top dog back then.[/quote]

I don’t know about NYC, but how does it compare to places in Europe and Asia? I’ve traveled to a lot of Asian countries and various places in Europe and most of the time, public transportation is a lot faster (less waiting) in major cities.

They can be crowded as hell (UK), but hey, I suppose it’s cause the darn thing works.

[CA renter]

[quote=UCGal]FWIW – I’ve never had any issue riding the bus to/from downtown. Most folks are reading books or newspapers, listening to headphones… I don’t ride the bus often – but a few times a year.

Joec – when was the last time you rode the bus? It’s not as scary as you might think.

I’m strongly considering having my kids ride the public bus home from middle school (near the zoo) to UC, this year. I rode the bus (by myself, at age 12) at their age from UC to balboa park to take ballet classes – it’s a good life skill. And this was when Horton Plaza was a place the wack-a-doodles went on rants – pre mall.

My biggest gripe with the bus is that it doesn’t run often enough or close enough to the places I want to go.[/quote]

I don’t think the issue is when you’re traveling on the bus, but when you’re waiting at the bus stations. I’ve had some pretty horrible experiences while waiting for buses (that were often late) or walking to/from the bus stop. And waiting in the pouring rain when the bus stop doesn’t even have any kind of shelter or overhang? Not acceptable.

[livinincali]

[quote=joec]
I don’t know about NYC, but how does it compare to places in Europe and Asia? I’ve traveled to a lot of Asian countries and various places in Europe and most of the time, public transportation is a lot faster (less waiting) in major cities.

They can be crowded as hell (UK), but hey, I suppose it’s cause the darn thing works.[/quote]

I was just recently in Europe and New York. I’d say they’re fairly comparable although it depends. Some of the European airports are integrated better with the public transportation. I.e. you follow the signs to the RER in Paris or the tube in the UK. You buy your ticket and go though the standard subway/train entrance. I will say that it’s slightly more clear where you should be going and how you should pay. In Barcelona we took the bus from the airport to the center of the city and that was fairly easy. The Airtrain at JFK is just as easy if you’ve done it before, but knowing where to go, which way to go to get to Jamica, and the payment system is not as nice. If you could straight shot a LIRR or a subway from underneath JFK to Penn or Grand Central it would be a lot nicer.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=joec]
I don’t know about NYC, but how does it compare to places in Europe and Asia? I’ve traveled to a lot of Asian countries and various places in Europe and most of the time, public transportation is a lot faster (less waiting) in major cities.

They can be crowded as hell (UK), but hey, I suppose it’s cause the darn thing works.[/quote]

In my opinion, NYC compares favorably to Europe and Asia in terms of public transport.

But.. (isn’t there always a but?) NYC is standing still while the rest of world moves ahead.

30 years ago, Korea and Taiwan, Singapore, etc.. were third world countries. Now, they are modern countries with great mass transit systems.

There is better, faster implementation of technology in Europe whereas in NYC the unions are preventing any kind of automation. Lots of fare cheats in NY and no distance pricing which causes loss of revenue for capital improvements.

Cell phones don’t work in the subway but that is changing slowly station by station. Filthy, dark stations that smell of urine. But one real advantage of the NYC subway is that it runs 24 hours a day!! Grand Central station is pretty stunning and over 100 years old! That how advanced NY was at one time. Imagine being a new immigrant in 1920 walking around NY.

growth based on highway building has reached its limits. BTW, GE is acquiring the French company Alstom because they want to get in the train business. They also do nuclear which is complementary to GE’s business.

The French are trying to make GE separate the train business and promise to keep it in France. That’s how important they view that sector.

[spdrun]

Thank G-d for no distance pricing in NYC. Having to pull a fare card out twice would make exit lines move much slower. It also would punish less well-off people from the outer areas of the boroughs vs the wealthier who commute within Manhattan or from closer areas in the boroughs. The $2.50 (less the MetroCard discount) fare anywhere in the city or the $112 flat-rate monthly card are quite OK with me.

The problems are mainly the unions and generally asinine bureaucracy, which make any modernization projects end up massively over time and over budget. As far as cell phones not working in the subway — really, who cares? If you can’t stay off the intarwebz for 15 minutes, you need therapy, not a hotspot.

[jeff303]

[quote=spdrun]
The problems are mainly the unions and generally asinine bureaucracy, which make any modernization projects end up massively over time and over budget.[/quote]

I thought the main problem was that these subway lines are busy 24x7x365, making it extremely difficult to accomplish major work without disrupting service? I guess I’m wrong; it’s really those damn unions again.

[quote=spdrun]As far as cell phones not working in the subway — really, who cares? If you can’t stay off the intarwebz for 15 minutes, you need therapy, not a hotspot.[/quote]

Did you know some people spend an hour or more each way underground on their daily commute?

[spdrun]

^^^

Except that the 2nd Ave Subway is still over budget, over time, and scaled back from the original plan. Not as if they’re running trains on that line. What’s the excuse there?

It’s not only unions, BTW. It’s bureaucracy and politics. Projects get scaled back, changed, redesigned to be less functional, etc, for political reasons, then killed, then the design process gets to start all over. Look at the saga of the Penn Station railroad tunnel expansion for a particularly egregious example of this.

Tunnel capacity from Penn Station to NJ is sorely lacking. One tube each direction, built for early-1900s-era trains. If a train breaks down, traffic is snarled for hours. New tunnels were originally supposed to connect to Penn Station, then the plan was changed to connect to a dead-end underground station under Macy’s. This project was killed for fiscal and utilitarian reasons by Gov. Christie of NJ. Thankfully.

Now, 4-5 years later, there’s a new design phase of a tunnel that will connect to Penn Station and to the Penn Station annex being built in part of the general post office building on 8th Avenue. Fortunately, they’re including provisions to make this happen in the Hudson Yards project (building a few office and apartment buildings on a bridge above an open-air rail yard). Meanwhile, years of time and lots of contractor money have been flushed down the bog. If this were Switzerland, Germany, or Malaysia, the tunnel would have been built 10 years ago and would have been up and running, to Penn Station.

As far as people spending an hour on the subway, fine. Just what we need — everyone yap-yap-yapping and texting instead of holding on to the handrails on a crowded car. What’s wrong /w just reading a book?

[FlyerInHi]

Nothing wrong with a book.

But the difference between an advanced society and a backward one are the amenities we enjoy, because we can.

I think that mobile devices that work everywhere, and clean, safe, comfortable, pleasant, air-conditioned public transport are signs of an advanced society.

[spdrun]

Free people don’t need their electronic leashes to work 24/7 (so their boss can email when they’re taking the train to meet with a friend at 11 pm Friday) and track them everywhere. Slaves do. This freedman really doesn’t care one way or another about living in some marketeer’s wet dream of an “advanced” society.

I prefer the idea of a comfortable, honest, and just society to an advanced one. I can’t think of a single time when being able to yap-yap-yapp or connect to the intarwebz on the subway would have enriched my life materially.

The great thing about e-books is that they’re downloaded for off-line use.

[FlyerInHi]

It’s not about you enriching your life. It’s about convenience, entertainment and commerce for everyone. We are all enriched by that.

I don’t want to start an ebook on a subway ride. I like to read the nytimes online. Or remotely turn off my thermostat

[spdrun]

NY Times app stores content offline so it’s available whether or not you have a signal. Thermostat can wait 30 minutes, no?

I disagree that we’re enriched by rampant commerce/commercialism everywhere. Nor are we enriched by electronic entertainment everywhere — if anything, zomboids engrossed in their e-Toys reduce serendipity, which is itself one of the factors that enriches city life.

[afx114]

[Author]

Posts