Question for those of you opposed to government pensions.

[briansd1]

That’s a pretty good summary, harvey.

You forgot about survivor benefits. The wife will likely live to 80.

I learned from my first Finance class to look at money in terms of NPV. Best way to compare to apples to apple.

[sdrealtor]

MIght also want to add in the value of a college degree and MBA as well as years of housing. It sounds like a pretty good gig and clearly the poster understands and appreciates that.

[briansd1]

[quote=UCGal]
Why is the bashing never directed towards them?
[/quote]

Because people use the flag and patriotism to bash others who have different opinions.

In reality, the patriotic thing do to is to debate things and rationally come up with pragmatic solutions that benefit the whole country.

As harvey pointed out, doing the math is the best way to look at compensation.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Always studying]We do have medical insurance that covers our family, this year it only costs $548; which is great, however, in the next few years it will increase upwards to $1500 a year.[/quote]

It’s worth noting that $1500/year is about what families pay for a decent medical insurance policy if they don’t have one provided by their employer (e.g. small business owners or private-sector retirees.) If the military premiums are going up this high, it probably means that they aren’t going to cover much of the expense at all. But if you are only paying $500/month now that means you are effectively getting another $10K year from your retirement benefit in the form of healthcare (for now, at least.)

Medical benefits in a retirement package can be a very valuable perk.

[briansd1]

harvey, I believe you meant that families would pay $1,500 per month (not per year) for health insurance if they had to pay out of pocket.

He’s paying $548 per year for family coverage. That’s a smoking deal.

For example, a self-employed architect would likely pay $1,500 per month for health insurance for his family, if his wife did not work for a company that provides insurance.

[Anonymous]

Yes, there’s a typo in my previous post and I meant to say $1500/month in the first sentence.

I’m self-employed and that’s about what I pay.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=Always studying]This is one topic that I can actually add value to. I’ve been lurking on here for years. I retired from the Marine Corps last year, as an E-8 with 22 years and 1 week. My retirement pension is worth just under 30K a year, it will never decrease and will only increase with whatever COLA raises we get. It is not enough to live on but it helps.

We do have medical insurance that covers our family, this year it only costs $548; which is great, however, in the next few years it will increase upwards to $1500 a year.

I was 40 when I retired, during my service I used tuition assistance to earn a bachelors degree and the post 9/11 GI Bill to earn an MBA, so I was able to find a second career after I retired.

The pension helps in the wage gap in the civilian world. I had to start over at a software company, I am not complaining I really enjoy my job and my coworkers, but the average 40 year old at my company is making much more money than I am, because they have much more time in the civilian workforce. My pension helps close that gap.

The military is looking at switching to 401K systems; the problem is that whoever joins now is signing up for the pension system, so whatever changes are made will not take effect for at least 20 years. The pension and other benefits are a great retention tool, although most service members get out after their initial contract, but those of us who stick it out and take advantage of the benefits are pretty lucky and happy.[/quote]

Thank you for your contribution, Always studying. You are fortunate enough that you made it as far as E-8 from your humble beginnings as a post-HS graduate enlistee. I have no doubt your savvy decisions to continue your education both on and off base and on shipboard and actually obtaining a bachelor degree and post-grad degree while STILL in helped you rise through the ranks. The vast majority of enlistees only obtain a few undergraduate credits while in and finish their bachelor degree work after they get discharged or retire. You obviously must have had a very supportive spouse/family who didn’t mind you constantly studying in your scant precious time at home and likely during standdowns and leave.

You didn’t mention (perhaps you haven’t been “retired” long enough to know) that for several recent years, military retirees (along with OASDI-SS, SSI, SSD and VA disability recipients) received zero COLA, due to the Federal Gov’t determining their had been no inflation the previous year.

You also didn’t elaborate on your personal working and living conditions during all the years while still earning this pension. I seriously doubt too many young Piggs here have lived aboard ship in a 27″ bunk with another bunk both above and below and have only a 1-2 sf by 6 ft high locker to store all their “worldly possessions.” Nor do they sleep on concrete floors in a line with their heads on a seabag and eat out of vending machines in military airports while waiting 4-30 hours on the “manifest” taking turns boarding planes as they trickle in one by one to pick them up. And these are the “good” working conditions which would not be considered to be forward deployed or stationed in the thick of a “war zone” :=0

IMO, you have “earned” every penny of your “pension.” Congrats on your ability to obtain civilian employment right after retirement!

[bearishgurl]

[quote=briansd1]…He’s paying $548 per year for family coverage. That’s a smoking deal…[/quote]

Uh, folks … this is “Tricare Prime.” It’s not exactly the same as what you may be “accustomed to.” It’s more like an HMO where you don’t get a huge choice of providers. In addition, if you live in an area where military facilities abound, the only way to get “free” care is to use military hospitals and clinics. In any case, there is an office visit co-pay and a hospital co-pay with TP if using civilian facilities (ex: Sharp Rees Stealy Urgent Care). If, as a TP “beneficiary,” you seeking authorization for elective surgery, for example, Tricare Prime may approve it done ONLY at a military facility. If you were thinking TP “beneficiaries” are enjoying “free brand-name” prescriptions and having their cancer treated at the Mayo Clinic, think again. They have to wait in line at a military facility and pull a number to turn in a paper prescription if they want it for “free.” And it better be written properly as a “generic.” To get refills, you call a NAVHOSP number and they are mailed to your home in 5-10 days. Refills are NOT instant, you can’t get them in person and you can’t just have your doctor call them into Rite Aid, lol. If you need a refill and don’t have any left on your prescription, you have to go back to the dr, get another paper prescription and go back to the military pharmacy pull a number, rinse and repeat.

No, it’s not the same as Aetna or Anthem Blue Cross, etc PPO’s. Not by a long shot.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=briansd1]…You forgot about survivor benefits. The wife will likely live to 80… [/quote]

Uh….”survivor benefits,” known as SBP are cheap for minor children (abt 2% of the monthly pension for one or more children). Of course, they will eventually turn 18, at which time their SBP will terminate (unsure if a FT college student under age 23 can collect it). For a spouse they are VERY expensive and thus are not taken out by all married soon-to-be military retirees. SBP must be elected PRIOR to retirement. IIRC, the spouse SBP deduction is roughly about 18% of the monthly pension amount. Thus, the sponsor is actually paying in these high monthly “premiums” to ensure their spouse receives 50% for life of their monthly retirement at the time of their deaths. If the spouse predeceases the sponsor, these premiums are forfeited.

Correct me if I have any of this wrong, Always studying or Allan from Fallbrook.

[briansd1]

Regardless of the semantics and the details, $1/2 million NPV for the pension is in the low range. Add medical, spousal benefits, educational subsidies, VA mortgages, etc… and we end up with much more.

As harvey mentioned, can we afford this largesse?

BG, BTW, my good buddy is a retired Navy pilot and we talk about it. He knows he got a great deal.

As the real estate “expert” in our group of friends, I even helped him buy his house with a no money down VA loan.

He did sleep on ships and barracks in his younger days. But later in his career, when he was in Korea for 2 years on assignment, the government rented him a luxury $3,500 per month (nomimal money in the early 2000’s) apartment in central Seoul.

The government trained him straight out of college, and gave led him all the way. He had a lot of time off and goofed around a lot.

Most of us in the private sector have to provide our own training else companies won’t hire us.

[sdrealtor]

My first job out of college was in NYC. A la-z-boy recliner was my bed for the 6 months in a friends 200 sq ft studio apartment.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=briansd1]Regardless of the semantics and the details, $1/2 million NPV for the pension is in the low range. Add medical, spousal benefits, educational subsidies, VA mortgages, etc… and we end up with much more.

As harvey mentioned, can we afford this largesse?

BG, BTW, my good buddy is a retired Navy pilot and we talk about it. He knows he got a great deal.

As the real estate “expert” in our group of friends, I even helped him buy his house with a no money down VA loan.

He did sleep on ships and barracks in his younger days. But later in his career, when he was in Korea for 2 years on assignment, the government rented him a luxury $3,500 per month (nomimal money in the early 2000’s) apartment in central Seoul.

The government trained him straight out of college, and gave led him all the way. He had a lot of time off and goofed around a lot.

Most of us in the private sector have to provide our own training else companies won’t hire us.[/quote]

brian, your “Navy pilot” friend was an officer. Always studying was an enlistee who entered the service right out of HS. There is a chasm of difference. Did your “Navy officer” friend remain single throughout his career? The typical “enlistee” marries and has kids early and if their spouse proves not to be self-reliant and supportive of their “career” (incl repeated and back-to-back deployments), their “civilian lives” can easily spiral into a living nightmare. To spend likely their entire military career earning 6+ years worth of college credits part-time is asking A LOT of their spouses and family. Even in the rare instances when they are actually home for long-stretches, they are studying. This is NOT the norm for enlistees. Most of them return home to a mismanaged quagmire that needs to be unraveled (mostly financial mismanagement by the spouse and spouse desertion … yes, even with the kids :=0). I don’t have to tell you that the divorce rate is sky-high among enlistees.

Active-duty military are eligible for “housing,” but it is not “free.” Their housing allowance is garnished from their pay when they live in housing. It can be a “hardscrabble existence” for a spouse stuck in housing with kids as the vast majority of enlisted spouses are not “locals” and have never lived away from “home” and many have even written a check in their lives! Many, many of them abandon military housing in the middle of deployments and move back to their “home state” to parents’ houses with their kids in tow, leaving their sponsors to “clean up the mess” upon return. Some never move into military housing at all. They remain in their “home state” with parents and await return of the deployed spouse.

It’s a culture shock for an 18-23 yo military spouse with kids from rural USA to be dumped in the middle of a SD military housing project days or weeks before their spouse deploys.

Alway studying has come a lo-o-o-ng way, IMO.

[Always studying]

BG, no need to thank me, I signed up and reenlisted many times knowing what I was getting into. I actually don’t like it how people feel they need to thank the military. I understand why they want to, but don’t like it. We are all being compensated for the career choices that we make.

You are right that many service members obtain college credits, I knew many throughout my career who earned degrees while still serving and deploying.

To say that my family has been supportive would be an understatement, my wife is incredible, I will just leave it at that.

Yes my living conditions were not that great, the government never rented me a expensive hotel like they did for Brian’s friend. On my 1st deployment to Iraq we slept under the stars as the SNCOs in my platoon gave our 2 man tents to our Sgt’s so they wouldn’t be so cramped. On my last three deployments to that wonderful country we slept in the old Iraqi air force barracks. It wasn’t great but it wasn’t too bad either.

My point is that although our living conditions were not great, we all knew what we were signing up for.

I do have a huge amount of respect for all the young kids who signed up after 9/11. When I enlisted out of high school in 1989 there was a thought of going to war, the kids who sign up now, KNOW they are going.

[Always studying]

[quote=bearishgurl][quote=briansd1]Regardless of the semantics and the details, $1/2 million NPV for the pension is in the low range. Add medical, spousal benefits, educational subsidies, VA mortgages, etc… and we end up with much more.

As harvey mentioned, can we afford this largesse?

BG, BTW, my good buddy is a retired Navy pilot and we talk about it. He knows he got a great deal.

As the real estate “expert” in our group of friends, I even helped him buy his house with a no money down VA loan.

He did sleep on ships and barracks in his younger days. But later in his career, when he was in Korea for 2 years on assignment, the government rented him a luxury $3,500 per month (nomimal money in the early 2000’s) apartment in central Seoul.

The government trained him straight out of college, and gave led him all the way. He had a lot of time off and goofed around a lot.

Most of us in the private sector have to provide our own training else companies won’t hire us.[/quote]

brian, your “Navy pilot” friend was an officer. Always studying was an enlistee who entered the service right out of HS. There is a chasm of difference. Did your “Navy officer” friend remain single throughout his career? The typical “enlistee” marries and has kids early and if their spouse proves not to be self-reliant and supportive of their “career” (incl repeated and back-to-back deployments), their “civilian lives” can easily spiral into a living nightmare. To spend likely their entire military career earning 6+ years worth of college credits part-time is asking A LOT of their spouses and family. Even in the rare instances when they are actually home for long-stretches, they are studying. This is NOT the norm for enlistees. Most of them return home to a mismanaged quagmire that needs to be unraveled (mostly financial mismanagement by the spouse and spouse desertion … yes, even with the kids :=0). I don’t have to tell you that the divorce rate is sky-high among enlistees.

Active-duty military are eligible for “housing,” but it is not “free.” Their housing allowance is garnished from their pay when they live in housing. It can be a “hardscrabble existence” for a spouse stuck in housing with kids as the vast majority of enlisted spouses are not “locals” and have never lived away from “home” and many have even written a check in their lives! Many, many of them abandon military housing in the middle of deployments and move back to their “home state” to parents’ houses with their kids in tow, leaving their sponsors to “clean up the mess” upon return. Some never move into military housing at all. They remain in their “home state” with parents and await return of the deployed spouse.

It’s a culture shock for an 18-23 yo military spouse with kids from rural USA to be dumped in the middle of a SD military housing project days or weeks before their spouse deploys.

Alway studying has come a lo-o-o-ng way, IMO.[/quote]

BG, once again you are right that the military housing allowance is deducted when you live in base housing. I only lived in base housing for six months, I would never do it again. The housing in San Diego is privatized. Lincoln Military Housing controls the housing in the San Diego area. I lived in the Linda Vista E-6 and up housing for 6 months, my rent was my full housing allowance ($2400) a month, and the house was in BAD shape.

The issues you bring up about enlisted servicemen having trouble in their marriages is why I support the services instituting regulations that forbid service members on the first enlistment from getting married. Gen Mundy the Commandant of the Marine Corps tried it in 1993, but had to revoke it after 1 day. Young married Marines can be a serious leadership challenge, as they and their new spouse are not emotionally ready to handle the lifestyle of long stretches of time away from each other.

This brings me to another point. Why do people join enlist in the military and immediately start having kids? I have seen 20 year old E-3’s with three kids complaining they have no money. And then the media cries that we need to support our military families. What needs to happen is that military members need to realize that the pay sucks, and if you let your wife (or husband) sit at home and pop out babies then your life is going to suck also. End of rant.

[Always studying]

[quote=sdrealtor]MIght also want to add in the value of a college degree and MBA as well as years of housing. It sounds like a pretty good gig and clearly the poster understands and appreciates that.[/quote]

Good point, the Post 9/11 GI Bill will pay up to $80,00 for college. I know they paid ASU $45,000 for my MBA, and even paid me a living stipend while I finished my degree for two months after I retired.

The benefits we get are incredible, I wish more servicemembers would take advantage of them. On the other hand if they do, this country will go broke!

[Author]

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