OT: vote for which track car

[mixxalot]

Well my M3 has been reliable and affordable to own and I’ve had it six years.

Anyways my dream track car would definitely be the Porsche 911GT3RS if I had infinite money or a Ferrari Scuderia!

[ucodegen]

@flu I mentioned the Pontiac GTO because it is an older vehicle, has full independent suspension, has options for manual transmission (the G8 is mostly automatic), uses a Chevy LSx based engine (when means you can be street legal and if you have spare cash, go nuts with an LS9, or sort of nuts with an LSA). Just get the engine from a vehicle of the same year or newer and you are emissions legal – and have horsepower of nearly 600hp for LSA and near 700hp for LS9. There are also a lot of aftermarket parts for the vehicle, and if you don’t find them in the US, you can find them from Australia (It is a Holden chassis). It is heavier than 3000lbs, but that helps if you get hit. A ‘tap’ by someone pushing cars around on the track is less likely to kick you off your line.

What type of vehicles are your beaters? You didn’t mention whether you are doing class racing, and have restrictions on the mods you can do.

[Coronita]

[quote=ucodegen] @flu I mentioned the Pontiac GTO because it is an older vehicle, has full independent suspension, has options for manual transmission (the G8 is mostly automatic), uses a Chevy LSx based engine (when means you can be street legal and if you have spare cash, go nuts with an LS9, or sort of nuts with an LSA). Just get the engine from a vehicle of the same year or newer and you are emissions legal – and have horsepower of nearly 600hp for LSA and near 700hp for LS9. There are also a lot of aftermarket parts for the vehicle, and if you don’t find them in the US, you can find them from Australia (It is a Holden chassis). It is heavier than 3000lbs, but that helps if you get hit. A ‘tap’ by someone pushing cars around on the track is less likely to kick you off your line.

What type of vehicles are your beaters? You didn’t mention whether you are doing class racing, and have restrictions on the mods you can do.[/quote]

Don’t plan on doing any sort of competitive class racing. I guess I just want to get on the track and just…drive…. Right now, the only thing I have is a stripped 2250 lb miata that with an Eaton MP-62 supercharger on the cold side. Supposedly, it’s suppose to be about 200hp at the wheel, which is more than enough for my current skill level. Also, I have some adjustable shocks/springs/sway bars, and a less restrictive and lighter weight exhaust (it does have a cat, so it’s street legal and passes CARB, but one dropped one pre-silencer. And I’m running slightly larger tires 225/50/15 or 245/45/15 on 8″ rims (yeah, I know stock miatas are 14″) only because tire selection on 15″ are much better than 14″. Running slightly aggressive streetable pads: Hawk HP+ on stock calipers and rotors, which is fine for auto-x, and I don’t mind switching if it’s needed (I haven’t found a need to yet). No ABS. It’s also stripped: no carpet, no insulation, lightweight 2 lb motorcycle battery, no center console. I can probably reduce the weight by 100 more lbs by dropping the A/C, pulling out what is left of the front console, and replacing the seats with lighter weight seats (which on a full track I probably should do along with a 5 point harness). But then, I would also need to add a full cage, and a hardtop too, and still it wouldn’t be as safe as a car with an actual hardtop, I think. And all that won’t be exactly cheap. So I think I’ll probably keep it as is and use it only for utocross car and something just to throw around for fun. Hence, dedicated track car ideally that can be street legal enough to drive occasionally.

The other beater is an Audi A4 that use to be modded with a larger turbo, but I blew the turbo and the ECU died, so I went back to a stock tune. Not to mention, when that thing breaks, it’s a PITA to fix.

I don’t need a ridiculous high horsepower car, as I’d probably get myself killed at this point with one. As far as “twitchy cars”, that’s one of the reasons why I like the miata.

[ucodegen]

[quote=flu]Don’t plan on doing any sort of competitive class racing. I guess I just want to get on the track and just…drive…. Right now, the only thing I have is a stripped 2250 lb miata that with an Eaton MP-62 supercharger on the cold side. Supposedly, it’s suppose to be about 200hp at the wheel, which is more than enough for my current skill level.[/quote] As with all things ‘under pressure’, depends upon what the boost is and your inlet temperature. Of course CARB can step in and limit what you can do.
[quote=flu]And I’m running slightly larger tires 225/50/15 or 245/45/15 on 8″ rims (yeah, I know stock miatas are 14″) only because tire selection on 15″ are much better than 14″. Running slightly aggressive streetable pads: Hawk HP+ on stock calipers and rotors, which is fine for auto-x, and I don’t mind switching if it’s needed (I haven’t found a need to yet).[/quote]For tracks, you might want to see if you can get a larger rotor. With the larger rims, you get more space for larger rotors. In Autocross, you don’t get up to very high speeds. Tracking at something like Willow Springs, you will get to much higher speeds. Double the speed of a vehicle, you are dealing with 4x the energy. The larger diameter can help the ride, it will allow a lower profile, though at 245 in width, the tire may limit top speed (rolling drag can increase with width on the tire – part of why true off road tires are detrimental to gas mileage) With your lightening, you may want to check where the center of mass is in the vehicle(or weight distribution). A car that will not push in Autocross(understeer), might push on track use at a higher speed. You can relocate some weight to the back via the battery – heavier if needed. If you are not using the AC and don’t plan to use it – might as well remove it. It will also help with cooling the engine when the condenser is removed.

I think you can do a full cage w/o a hardtop. BTW cages are much stronger than just a hardtop (that is a properly built cage). Most cages are Chrome-Moly, sheet metal that makes up a hard-top, is not Chrome-Moly (and doesn’t do as well when a car rolls). Another thing to look at is putting reinforcement bars within the doors of the vehicle (protect the driver if T-boned).

[quote=flu]As far as “twitchy cars”, that’s one of the reasons why I like the miata.[/quote]The problem is that when you go from Autocross to tracking, your speeds change and the speed at which a car can change direction contrary to your intended direction also increase. You are probably running some camber in the miata right now, adding in a little more castor might help reduce twichiness at high speeds. As a side note, it would definitely be better to use a car that is not a PITA to fix. You may also want to look at oil pans that hold oil better on a sustained corner (corners last one or two seconds in autocross), track corners can cause the oil pickup to start drawing air. Another trick to use is to run a car about 1/4 of a quart above the top line (separation between lines is about 1 quart).

[TeCKis300]

Having enjoyed my fair share of autox at Qualcomm and track days in the SoCal region… I don’t think either new car would make a good track toy.

While any sporty car can make for a fun autox experience because of the lower speeds, inherent safety of the format, and less consumables.

The reality when talking about road course events is that a street cars make for poor track cars because of fundamental diametric requirements.

But before I go into that, and because I’m a caring parent myself… please don’t send your learning spawn into the hardened roadways, full of distracted and raging drivers, in a tin can car. Mass is by far the biggest discriminator in the outcome of car on car accidents.

So back to that grown up track toy. The mentality should be if you’re willing to put a car on the track, you’re willing to wad it up and throw it away. Your regular insurance won’t cover you, but there are optional track day specific insurance you can buy. And because there’s always a chance you could wad it up (either of your own doing or someone else), or some unforeseen situation (i.e. fluid spillage), safety should be a paramount concern. Which means a cage. Which is good for that 5-point harness you’ll want for safety, but also proper restraints. Cause a track day will put real g-forces on your body. And if you’re working on your technique, you don’t want to be trying to brace yourself with your elbow and knee, while working on your steering and pedal finesse.

I’m happy you recognize that hp is not really that important on the track and is only something that increases risk and the cost of consumables. In a light car (cause add lightness), 200hp is great, 300hp is super fun, 300hp++ and you better have some real safety gear and technique cause stuff happens fast.

You already in many ways own the perfect fun track car. Add a full blown cage, with proper seat, harness, and hans device so you can feel safe on the track. With those items, it’ll be way safer than just about any new track toy anyways. And you’ll be having more fun.

The only other car I’m considering for a dedicated track toy is an older boxter or cayman. If only because of the camaraderie and invites to those events. My street car, while I intended to originally do regular track days with, is waaaay too much hp for the track and a real liability because of that. Plus I love it too much as a street car to add a cage.

Buy the new car you want for the street. You’ll have saved money using the old Miata, and be more safe, and have more fun because of it.

[creechrr]

[quote=TeCKis300]
So back to that grown up track toy. The mentality should be if you’re willing to put a car on the track, you’re willing to wad it up and throw it away. Your regular insurance won’t cover you, but there are optional track day specific insurance you can buy. And because there’s always a chance you could wad it up (either of your own doing or someone else), or some unforeseen situation (i.e. fluid spillage), safety should be a paramount concern. Which means a cage.
[/quote]

This is what I was getting at earlier. I’ve seen the “track car/DD” get balled up on course. It’s not pretty to see a grown man cry.

Also, having been in this situation myself and seeing friends go down this path, you don’t need pimpy mods to track your car. Just make sure it’s solidly road worthy and go have fun. Spend the initial budget on a good seat, roll protection and a helmet.

My first time on track, I cooked the brakes in about 5 laps on the infield at Auto Club. I learned from that experience and did much better during the second session. I wouldn’t have realized I had a problem with my technique if I had been running a BBK.

I suggest spending the time and money on the driver first. The go-fast goodies can mask driver deficiencies. I guess I’m making the assumption that your goal is to become a better driver.

I have witnessed and also myself run down what should be a much faster car due to differences in driver skill levels.

As for selecting a car, have you considered an E36 BMW? They are actually pretty reliable, have a low price of entry, RWD, have a huge aftermarket that rivals the Civc and whatever you’d think about doing has already been done. A Google search can provide a solution to just about any problem you could face.

[Coronita]

[quote=TeCKis300]Having enjoyed my fair share of autox at Qualcomm and track days in the SoCal region… I don’t think either new car would make a good track toy.

While any sporty car can make for a fun autox experience because of the lower speeds, inherent safety of the format, and less consumables.

The reality when talking about road course events is that a street cars make for poor track cars because of fundamental diametric requirements.

But before I go into that, and because I’m a caring parent myself… please don’t send your learning spawn into the hardened roadways, full of distracted and raging drivers, in a tin can car. Mass is by far the biggest discriminator in the outcome of car on car accidents.

So back to that grown up track toy. The mentality should be if you’re willing to put a car on the track, you’re willing to wad it up and throw it away. Your regular insurance won’t cover you, but there are optional track day specific insurance you can buy. And because there’s always a chance you could wad it up (either of your own doing or someone else), or some unforeseen situation (i.e. fluid spillage), safety should be a paramount concern. Which means a cage. Which is good for that 5-point harness you’ll want for safety, but also proper restraints. Cause a track day will put real g-forces on your body. And if you’re working on your technique, you don’t want to be trying to brace yourself with your elbow and knee, while working on your steering and pedal finesse.

I’m happy you recognize that hp is not really that important on the track and is only something that increases risk and the cost of consumables. In a light car (cause add lightness), 200hp is great, 300hp is super fun, 300hp++ and you better have some real safety gear and technique cause stuff happens fast.

You already in many ways own the perfect fun track car. Add a full blown cage, with proper seat, harness, and hans device so you can feel safe on the track. With those items, it’ll be way safer than just about any new track toy anyways. And you’ll be having more fun.

The only other car I’m considering for a dedicated track toy is an older boxter or cayman. If only because of the camaraderie and invites to those events. My street car, while I intended to originally do regular track days with, is waaaay too much hp for the track and a real liability because of that. Plus I love it too much as a street car to add a cage.

Buy the new car you want for the street. You’ll have saved money using the old Miata, and be more safe, and have more fun because of it.[/quote]

Interesting. I might have to rethink this then. Perhaps, I should just give up on the idea of leaving the miata streetable and just make it barely street legal just to move it. Because everything you to to make the car more race prepped is terrible for street use.

I think what that would entail would be
1) Full roll cage: probably adds 100 lbs
2) Bolted hardtop and ditch the convertible top: probably break even on weight

3) Removal of front console A/C, airbags
4) Race seats + 5 point harness
5) Hans restraint:
6) Fire bottle extinguisher system

No way I would be driving a car with a full cage on the street not wearing a helmet. That’s just asking for trouble should someone rear ends you, and your skull lands into a part of the roll cage.

Oh, and I understand the wad up theory very well, hence the miata. It’s just that if it ends up being waded up, I don’t want to be the little sardine in it.

[quote]
The only other car I’m considering for a dedicated track toy is an older boxter or cayman.
[/quote]

Yeah, people keep telling me Boxster BSX. It’s not a bad for around $18k

[Coronita]

Ugh…This is going to add up pretty quickly

1. Full roll cage $800 to $1000 + welding labor
https://www.good-win-racing.com/mazda/miata/search_results.html

2. Sell my existing rollbar maybe $200

3. R3 restraint device $950
http://www.good-win-racing.com/Mazda-Performance-Part/30-1040R3.html

4. 5 point harness $500
http://www.miatacage.com/miscellaneous-safety-1?pagenumber=3

5. Hardtop $1000

6. Window net and arm restraints $250

8. Seats: $500

Maybe I should pick a cheaper hobby. Like collecting stamps.

[TeCKis300]

So your post has me chasing my itch again.

I’ve been without a track toy since I’ve upgraded my fun car/daily driver to too much car. I won’t say specifically what it is as people will judge, but what the heck, it will give you some context. Besides my coworkers have all judged me already as having my priorities all wrong =P. It’s a P car, Turbo.

It’s great fun on the street. It’s crack to me really. But it’s again, too much car to put on the track in terms of sentimental value, consumables, maintenance, and risk to my health (it’s got even bigger turbo’s than stock).

I’ve been pondering a Boxter for awhile. This thread I think is a great read (ignore the forum) – http://www.trackhq.com/forums/f303/350z-miata-track-4866/. Flu, you already have the perfect car.

Now I’m pondering an S2K, if only for the variety against a P-car and I’ve always liked itss style.

[Coronita]

[quote=TeCKis300]So your post has me chasing my itch again.

I’ve been without a track toy since I’ve upgraded my fun car/daily driver to too much car. I won’t say specifically what it is as people will judge, but what the heck, it will give you some context. Besides my coworkers have all judged me already as having my priorities all wrong =P. It’s a P car, Turbo.

It’s great fun on the street. It’s crack to me really. But it’s again, too much car to put on the track in terms of sentimental value, consumables, maintenance, and risk to my health (it’s got even bigger turbo’s than stock).

I’ve been pondering a Boxter for awhile. This thread I think is a great read (ignore the forum) – http://www.trackhq.com/forums/f303/350z-miata-track-4866/. Flu, you already have the perfect car.

Now I’m pondering an S2K, if only for the variety against a P-car and I’ve always liked itss style.[/quote]

The s2k is a pretty good car. But for me at the time, at the time it was expensive to have for something that I considered a “throw away car”, which the $2000 miata is what I considered as. Then I stuck $1000 in suspension, $5000 on a supercharger, and switched to wider rims, and pretty soon the miata is not such a throwaway anymore. Well, I guess it still is. In the event it’s totaled, I guess hopefully I can salvage the suspension, wheels, and supercharger.

The Boxster BSX is supposedly pretty reliable. The only thing I don’t like is that if you do need to do something with it, I think anything more than an oil change, you’ll probably need to drop the entire engine out, which for a garage mechanic it isn’t possible unless your garage has a lift.

I came really close to buying a 911s…That was preempted by the availability of a condo short sales…And then I was seriously thinking about a GT4 and calling places to get an order in…And then it dawned on me, that I would of a never drive it on a track.

[bobby]

I daily drive an S2k. Fun car. Amazing gear box. Had it for 15 years and went through 4 other cars but still kept the S2k.
only draw back is twitchy. Has tendency to swap ends if not careful.
BTW, it’s next to impossible get a GT4 for MSRP. Most dealers are asking $15K+ premium on top due to availability.

[phaster]

[quote=bobby]I daily drive an S2k. Fun car. Amazing gear box. Had it for 15 years and went through 4 other cars but still kept the S2k.
only draw back is twitchy. Has tendency to swap ends if not careful.
BTW, it’s next to impossible get a GT4 for MSRP. Most dealers are asking $15K+ premium on top due to availability.[/quote]

can’t beat an old school “air cooled” 911 when it comes to excitement if you push it too hard on a wet surface (that heavy engine on the back end might on the aft side of the axel might have something to do with that?)

although I have also managed to swap ends on a land-cruiser (which I managed to do a few times crossing a muddy lake, that almost literally scared the $hit out of me)

another vehicle I discovered that has “stability” issues is any aircraft configured as a tail-dragger (I treat those with respect)

if money/space was no object I’d want an “off-road” arial for track days…

since I didn’t win @ powerball, guess all I can hope for is a .gif

[Coronita]

[quote=bobby]I daily drive an S2k. Fun car. Amazing gear box. Had it for 15 years and went through 4 other cars but still kept the S2k.
only draw back is twitchy. Has tendency to swap ends if not careful.
BTW, it’s next to impossible get a GT4 for MSRP. Most dealers are asking $15K+ premium on top due to availability.[/quote]

GT4 premium is more like $20k-25k. I was able to get an allocation for around $20k over and that would allow me to configure it however I wanted. But with the $20k over MSRP, that pushes into 911s territory (I understand it’s completely two different cars), and then I decided against that idea because realistically, I wouldn’t race it. It would end up sitting in my garage most of the time.

One thing I really like is the Catfish Miata
https://www.flyinmiata.com/catfish/

Part of the fun I think would be building it. But then again, open top. Not to mention, dealing with SB100.

[bobby]

I know what you mean about a “track” car that doesn’t get used at the track due to the car’s cost.
My own experience is the car is still quite fun when used 6-7/10 on the street. The experience is really special each time you get behind the wheel. The way the car shakes, the sharp response, the shiny paint, the exhaust note, etc, make the drive quite fun – even when not at the track.
If you can swing it, get it. Not many car quite like the GT4.

[Coronita]

[quote=bobby]I know what you mean about a “track” car that doesn’t get used at the track due to the car’s cost.
My own experience is the car is still quite fun when used 6-7/10 on the street. The experience is really special each time you get behind the wheel. The way the car shakes, the sharp response, the shiny paint, the exhaust note, etc, make the drive quite fun – even when not at the track.
If you can swing it, get it. Not many car quite like the GT4.[/quote]

I think the window for me to get a GT4 passed already. Frankly, I would be “fine” with a 911s. The one that I test drove at Porsche of San Diego was a no bells and whistle one, which was exactly the way I liked it. That too passed. That one was I guess in color that most people didn’t want to get and was marked down significantly, and it happened to be the color I would want to get. Guards Red. I miss that thing.

The 992 will be interesting. Expensive…But interesting.

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