OT: parenting and the santa barbara shooter

[zk]

[quote=CA renter]

Asperger’s certainly didn’t help his cause, either.

[/quote]

All of these mass murderers were socially inept: Virginia Tech, Sandy Hook, Columbine, the Colorado movie theater, and UCSB. Many others, as well.

Some kids are weak at math. Some kids are weak at social skills. If a kid has weak math skills, he gets a tutor or, at worst, bad grades. If he has weak social skills, he gets bullied, ostracized, mocked, and maybe beaten up if he’s a boy or talked about ruinously behind her back if she’s a girl.

Obviously weak social skills are not the only factor here. But they are common to the above mass murders. That is not a coincidence. I honestly think that if society treated the socially inept less poorly, none of those crimes would’ve happened.

As long as we continue to act like this as a society, these crimes will continue.

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=zk][quote=CA renter]

Asperger’s certainly didn’t help his cause, either.

[/quote]

All of these mass murderers were socially inept: Virginia Tech, Sandy Hook, Columbine, the Colorado movie theater, and UCSB. Many others, as well.

Some kids are weak at math. Some kids are weak at social skills. If a kid has weak math skills, he gets a tutor or, at worst, bad grades. If he has weak social skills, he gets bullied, ostracized, mocked, and maybe beaten up if he’s a boy or talked about ruinously behind her back if she’s a girl.

Obviously weak social skills are not the only factor here. But they are common to the above mass murders. That is not a coincidence. I honestly think that if society treated the socially inept less poorly, none of those crimes would’ve happened.

As long as we continue to act like this as a society, these crimes will continue.[/quote]

yes. it’s not just being socially inept, but being extremely disturbed by one’s social ineptness. there are some socially inept kids who aren’t profoundly disturbed by it…and some who are.

and yet, how else can a society be but respond to ineptness with disdain? that’s how we learn from one another. we can’t train people to react to obnoxious people by being accepting of obnoxious behavior. they’re ostracized because they repulse people in one way or another. they are being unfit, and the reaction is a social attempt to redirect. perhaps unconscious, but that’s the purpose of the reaction. but it doesn’twork. some are so inept they don’t learn.

like the part where he’s discussing being a virgin with the black kid, Chance, who comes over to visit one of his roommates. he tells the black kid he does not beleive he slept witha white girl, the others (correctly) laugh at him, he goes in his room, cries, and calls his mom.

kind of the picture of social ineptitude.

but what could those roommates have done? I suppose they couldve felt pity on him, led him along, been kinder.

kind of liek the way the electronics store coworkers treated steve carell int he 40 year old virgin…

but that’s not the way guy society is.

[spdrun]

By the accounts I read, he didn’t even try to socialize, but was rather actively anti-social. I wonder if the rejection was all in his head, and if he didn’t ever even try to get a date.

[zk]

[quote=scaredyclassic]

but that’s not the way guy society is.[/quote]

Well, that’s certainly not the way American guy society is. Not sure that’s universal.

[scaredyclassic]

“Scholars,[46][47][48][49] following the lead of sociologist Robert Bellah, often make the argument that the United States has a secular “civil religion” – one with no association with any religious denomination or viewpoint – that has incorporated Memorial Day as a sacred event. With the Civil War, a new theme of death, sacrifice and rebirth enters the civil religion. Memorial Day gave ritual expression to these themes, integrating the local community into a sense of nationalism. The American civil religion, in contrast to that of France, was never anticlerical or militantly secular; in contrast to Britain, it was not tied to a specific denomination, such as the Church of England. The Americans borrowed from different religious traditions so that the average American saw no conflict between the two, and deep levels of personal motivation were aligned with attaining national goals.[50]”

……

Dwight D. Eisenhower… in his Farewell Address to the Nation on January 17, 1961:

A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction…

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every statehouse, every office of the federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military–industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together.

[zk]

[quote=spdrun]By the accounts I read, he didn’t even try to socialize, but was rather actively anti-social. I wonder if the rejection was all in his head, and if he didn’t ever even try to get a date.[/quote]

The rejection was not all in his head. Some of it was. But not all of it.

The actively anti-social part came later in his life. According to his autobiography (I don’t think it’s really a manifesto), anyway.

[Hobie]

Timeout. The dude was creepy. Conflicted metrosexual. Pussy. Broken brain is it, can’t be fixed.

Don’t jump to the wrong conclusion here but when a racehourse breaks it’s leg it is understood nothing can fix it.

Mental illness runs the gamut and I’ll bet this guy was high functioning enough to even pass a 72 hour psych hold. Can’t lock someone up for being anti-social, nor take his guns. Scarlett letter perhaps?/

Actually, not much has been said yet but the bike and foot patrol cops engauged this guy pretty early into his rampage and probably prevented him from killing even more. He had 400 rounds and 3 semiauto guns.

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=zk][quote=scaredyclassic]

but that’s not the way guy society is.[/quote]

Well, that’s certainly not the way American guy society is. Not sure that’s universal.[/quote]

ok, yeah, i meant, in isla vista, santa barbara, or pretty much anywhere in the usa. if you say youre a virgin and then accuse a guy of lying about sleeping with women acause he’s black, then go to your room and can be heard crying and callign your mom, people are going to not want to hang out with you. they’re going to think , dude is off. and so off it’s going to be hard to even find someone normal and sympathetic who wmight guide you back to the range of normal social interaction. it’s not mental illness per so, it’s…just being lame beyond belief. aggravated by mental problems, sure…but…gosh…there’s lots of mentally ill people who don’t act liek this…

[NotCranky]

ZK , I am a tabula rasa believer pretty strongly birth order is strong too. Luck is important. I will say that your post is fair minded. You are thoughtful well above average on these topics.

Yes, I have knee jerk reactions to “it’s just his brain” type comments. I agree his entitlement appears to be an insurmountable problem, or a complete impediment to any psychological change for the better whatever the roots of his dysfunction are. I think over attributing “syndromes” to adjustment and well being of children is a real curse on them and society. What did his parents do about the entitlement? All kids try to be spoiled one way or another. My guess is they related to him primarily through things that support entitlement and didn’t do much of the hard work of parenting and the meltdown was severe.

Definitely had social sexual adjustment problems buried deeper under his conflict with the “hot chicks” rejecting him, I think that was the surface of it , the way he acted it out and wanted to believe it, because his real problems whatever they were, were seriously repressed.

[zk]

[quote=Hobie]Timeout. The dude was creepy. Conflicted metrosexual. Pussy. Broken brain is it, can’t be fixed.

Don’t jump to the wrong conclusion here but when a racehourse breaks it’s leg it is understood nothing can fix it.

Mental illness runs the gamut and I’ll bet this guy was high functioning enough to even pass a 72 hour psych hold. Can’t lock someone up for being anti-social, nor take his guns. Scarlett letter perhaps?/

[/quote]

He was creepy, a pussy, and maybe a conflicted metrosexual. You’re an asshole. Should we shoot you, too?

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=Blogstar]ZK , I am a tabula rasa believer pretty strongly birth order is strong too. Luck is important. I will say that your post is fair minded. You are thoughtful well above average on these topics.

Yes, I have knee jerk reactions to “it’s just his brain” type comments. I agree his entitlement appears to be an insurmountable problem, or a complete impediment to any psychological change for the better whatever the roots of his dysfunction are. I think over attributing “syndromes” to adjustment and well being of children is a real curse on them and society. What did his parents do about the entitlement? All kids try to be spoiled one way or another. My guess is they related to him primarily through things that support entitlement and didn’t do much of the hard work of parenting and the meltdown was severe.

Definitely had social sexual adjustment problems buried deeper under his conflict with the “hot chicks” rejecting him, I think that was the surface of it , the way he acted it out and wanted to believe it, because his real problems whatever they were, were seriously repressed.[/quote]

sending him off to a community college and getting him a bmw sort of reek of wanting to duck the real issues. he writes about how he can’t see taking a retail job because it is beneath him. yet that probably wouldve been the healthiest thing. not too much isolation, and a job where he talks to other humans…mightve actually been therapeutic, if he had the right mindset…whcih he might have, if his folks had kind of laid it out for him in ameaningful way…maybe..

[NotCranky]

[quote=scaredyclassic][quote=Blogstar]ZK , I am a tabula rasa believer pretty strongly birth order is strong too. Luck is important. I will say that your post is fair minded. You are thoughtful well above average on these topics.

Yes, I have knee jerk reactions to “it’s just his brain” type comments. I agree his entitlement appears to be an insurmountable problem, or a complete impediment to any psychological change for the better whatever the roots of his dysfunction are. I think over attributing “syndromes” to adjustment and well being of children is a real curse on them and society. What did his parents do about the entitlement? All kids try to be spoiled one way or another. My guess is they related to him primarily through things that support entitlement and didn’t do much of the hard work of parenting and the meltdown was severe.

Definitely had social sexual adjustment problems buried deeper under his conflict with the “hot chicks” rejecting him, I think that was the surface of it , the way he acted it out and wanted to believe it, because his real problems whatever they were, were seriously repressed.[/quote]

sending him off to a community college and getting him a bmw sort of reek of wanting to duck the real issues. he writes about how he can’t see taking a retail job because it is beneath him. yet that probably wouldve been the healthiest thing. not too much isolation, and a job where he talks to other humans…mightve actually been therapeutic, if he had the right mindset…whcih he might have, if his folks had kind of laid it out for him in ameaningful way…maybe..[/quote]
Probably.

[zk]

[quote=scaredyclassic]…but…gosh…there’s lots of mentally ill people who don’t act liek this…[/quote]

No doubt. It’s only one factor.

Lots of people are mentally ill. Lots of people are socially inept. A smaller but still large number are both. And only a tiny percentage of those will actually lash out violently. Nonetheless, considering that most spree killers in this country these days are socially inept, it seems obvious that it’s an important factor. Which makes sense, given the toll that years of merciless social torture from your peers must take on a person.

[Coronita]

Somewhere buried in this news is the fact that he killed 3 asian kids because they “were too nerdy”…with a knife….

Kid was messed up….Was gonna find a way for maximum destruction…..knife, gun, car, or whatever else was available…..

Mental illness isn’t exactly the easiest thing to identify….Some people can I guess just “snap”….

[NotCranky]

[quote=zk][quote=scaredyclassic]…but…gosh…there’s lots of mentally ill people who don’t act liek this…[/quote]

No doubt. It’s only one factor.

Lots of people are mentally ill. Lots of people are socially inept. A smaller but still large number are both. And only a tiny percentage of those will actually lash out violently. Nonetheless, considering that most spree killers in this country these days are socially inept, it seems obvious that it’s an important factor. Which makes sense, given the toll that years of merciless social torture from your peers must take on a person.[/quote]

I wouldn’t trust his griping about other kids to be so much about the other kids, not from this guy. He can, in a very “misplaced” way, start blaming everybody else for his unhappiness at a very very young age.

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