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spdrun.
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December 9, 2014 at 9:27 PM #780901December 10, 2014 at 2:03 AM #780914
CA renter
Participant[quote=njtosd][quote=CA renter]I totally agree that the cops in the Garner case were out of line (IMO), but the cop in the Brown case was not.
If you haven’t seen this video, it shows why cops sometimes have to act in ways that many of us would think are over the top.
And another one showing what cops have to deal with, even during regular traffic stops (which happen to be when many officers are shot/assaulted/killed).
https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A86.JyTVgYdUTgYAYBIPxQt.;_ylc=X1MDMjExNDcwMDU1OQRfcgMyBGZyA3locy1tb3ppbGxhLTAwMQRncHJpZAM4Rlo0S3l6S1Q5YV9CNkUxWDJMVHNBBG5fcnNsdAMwBG5fc3VnZwMwBG9yaWdpbgNzZWFyY2gueWFob28uY29tBHBvcwMwBHBxc3RyAwRwcXN0cmwDBHFzdHJsAzU2BHF1ZXJ5A3ZpZGVvIG9mIGNvcCBiZWluZyBzaG90IG1hbiBmdXIgY29hdCBkdXJpbmcgdHJhZmZpYyBzdG9wBHRfc3RtcAMxNDE4MTY2NzU4?p=video+of+cop+being+shot+man+fur+coat+during+traffic+stop&fr2=sb-top-search&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001
This is more in response to the claim that Officer Wilson shouldn’t have shot Michael Brown because he was unarmed.
Cops have to make split-second decisions that often have life-or-death consequences. In the vast majority of cases, cops have no idea if someone is armed or not.[/quote]
I agree with you in many ways. One difference, though, is that Officer Wilson intended that Michael Brown die (or be grievously harmed) whereas I do not believe the officers in the Eric Garner case intended, or had a reasonable belief that Eric Garner would die. Chokeholds are not a walk in the park (and I know they are not allowed by the NYPD), but I would say that the level of force used was less than with Michael Brown. It’s similar to the question of whether it’s worse to try to shoot someone and miss or to smack someone in the head who dies due to having an “egg-shell” skull.
Call me naive, but I’m not sure that either of these situations were racially motivated – I think there are a lot of power crazy police officers out there.[/quote]Agree about the level of force involved. Officer Wilson shot to kill Michael Brown, but he was not an innocent victim, not by a long shot. Since the physical evidence shows that he was still traveling *toward* officer Wilson even after being shot, I don’t blame Wilson at all for wanting to eliminate the threat entirely.
The Garner case was different, at least in my opinion, because Garner was *clearly* not acting in a threatening way toward the officers. While it’s foolish to ignore police commands, cops do occasionally get on a power trip and do probably harass people who don’t necessarily deserve it. There’s a fine line between doing the right thing by cops and following police commands vs. allowing them to ride roughshod over a person’s civil rights. Not entirely sure where that line should be.
And I also believe that race is not the issue in either of these cases. IMO, if you changed their race to white, but kept all other variables (size, behavior, etc.) the same, these cases would have ended the same way. The issues that need to be addressed are police brutality, reasonable force, and the need for strong civil rights protections.
December 10, 2014 at 2:21 AM #780915Participant[quote=no_such_reality]
Does that include spraying over 100 rounds at a bright blue Tacoma with a 71 and 47 year old Hispanic women in it delivering newspaper when looking for a large black man in a dark grey Nissan Titan?[/quote]
Who’s defending that? FWIW, they got a nice settlement, and the police chief agreed that the officers who shot at them violated policy. Yes, the cops were on edge as they were defending the home of a captain who was specifically threatened by Dorner. Yes, they thought the sound of the newspaper hitting a driveway was a gunshot. Still, the women won a settlement without much effort…the cops knew what they did was wrong.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/lapd-cops-shot-women-violated-policy-article-1.1602272
December 10, 2014 at 6:36 AM #780918Anonymous
Guest[quote=CA renter]FWIW, they got a nice settlement, and the police chief agreed that the officers who shot at them violated policy.[/quote]
Whew! I was beginning to think that there would be no accountability.
December 10, 2014 at 8:35 AM #780919all
Participant[quote=CA renter][quote=no_such_reality]
Does that include spraying over 100 rounds at a bright blue Tacoma with a 71 and 47 year old Hispanic women in it delivering newspaper when looking for a large black man in a dark grey Nissan Titan?[/quote]
Who’s defending that? FWIW, they got a nice settlement, and the police chief agreed that the officers who shot at them violated policy. Yes, the cops were on edge as they were defending the home of a captain who was specifically threatened by Dorner. Yes, they thought the sound of the newspaper hitting a driveway was a gunshot. Still, the women won a settlement without much effort…the cops knew what they did was wrong.
Why would not the LAPD settle? It is not their money. Are the shooters still on desk duty?
December 10, 2014 at 10:17 PM #780965Participant[quote=all][quote=CA renter][quote=no_such_reality]
Does that include spraying over 100 rounds at a bright blue Tacoma with a 71 and 47 year old Hispanic women in it delivering newspaper when looking for a large black man in a dark grey Nissan Titan?[/quote]
Who’s defending that? FWIW, they got a nice settlement, and the police chief agreed that the officers who shot at them violated policy. Yes, the cops were on edge as they were defending the home of a captain who was specifically threatened by Dorner. Yes, they thought the sound of the newspaper hitting a driveway was a gunshot. Still, the women won a settlement without much effort…the cops knew what they did was wrong.
Why would not the LAPD settle? It is not their money. Are the shooters still on desk duty?[/quote]
From what I understand, they are trying to figure out how to punish them. Of course, it’s a bit tricky because they were asked to protect this captain because there was a very real death threat by someone who proved he meant business, and they did hear what they thought was a gunshot. It was a mistake, but it was a very big mistake.
December 11, 2014 at 7:03 AM #780973Guest[quote=CA renter]From what I understand, they are trying to figure out how to punish them.[/quote]
Maybe they should look into something called the California Code. I hear there are things in there called laws, many of them involve recklessly shooting at innocent people.
Oh … “it was a mistake” – they “thought” they heard a shot?
Yup, there’s part one of the problem. This whole idea of “I was a little uncertain so I decided to mitigate the risk by killing people” is bullshit.
If cops are going to use the “it’s a dangerous job” argument to justify their immunity, their compensation, and their power, they must be willing to accept the danger and not transfer the risk to the public every time they feel a bad vibe.
There are only two professions that routinely endanger innocents in order to protect themselves. Cop is one of them.
December 11, 2014 at 9:14 PM #781006no_such_reality
Participant[quote=CA renter][quote=no_such_reality]
Does that include spraying over 100 rounds at a bright blue Tacoma with a 71 and 47 year old Hispanic women in it delivering newspaper when looking for a large black man in a dark grey Nissan Titan?[/quote]
Who’s defending that? FWIW, they got a nice settlement, and the police chief agreed that the officers who shot at them violated policy. Yes, the cops were on edge as they were defending the home of a captain who was specifically threatened by Dorner. Yes, they thought the sound of the newspaper hitting a driveway was a gunshot. Still, the women won a settlement without much effort…the cops knew what they did was wrong.
The culture that sprays 100+ rounds is the same culture that pummels a schizophrenic to death (also acquitted), strangle holds a cigarette seller, pepper sprays sitting occupy wall street protestors, and so on…
December 11, 2014 at 9:19 PM #781010FlyerInHi
Guest[quote=no_such_reality] The culture that sprays 100+ rounds is the same culture that pummels a schizophrenic to death (also acquitted), strangle holds a cigarette seller, pepper sprays sitting occupy wall street protestors, and so on…[/quote]
An ammo-sexual culture.
December 11, 2014 at 9:23 PM #781011Participant[quote=no_such_reality][quote=CA renter][quote=no_such_reality]
Does that include spraying over 100 rounds at a bright blue Tacoma with a 71 and 47 year old Hispanic women in it delivering newspaper when looking for a large black man in a dark grey Nissan Titan?[/quote]
Who’s defending that? FWIW, they got a nice settlement, and the police chief agreed that the officers who shot at them violated policy. Yes, the cops were on edge as they were defending the home of a captain who was specifically threatened by Dorner. Yes, they thought the sound of the newspaper hitting a driveway was a gunshot. Still, the women won a settlement without much effort…the cops knew what they did was wrong.
The culture that sprays 100+ rounds is the same culture that pummels a schizophrenic to death (also acquitted), strangle holds a cigarette seller, pepper sprays sitting occupy wall street protestors, and so on…[/quote]
Do you have ANY experience that would be somewhat similar to what cops have to do on a daily basis? I think people like to talk a lot about things they do not understand.
You need to walk a mile (or even an inch) in their shoes. Go on a ride-along with cops in an urban environment, then come back to talk to us about how easy the job is.
December 12, 2014 at 5:33 AM #781016ParticipantYes I do. I grew up guns. I’ve known since I was six that you KNOW what you are shooting at before you shoot. Mistakes happen. Pulling the trigger fifteen times is not a mistake.
Their job is tough isn’t an excuse to kill people because they are over their heads.
I know it’s a sh*t job. Go watch the video of Ramos spoiling to beat Kelly Thomas.
Quit making excuses for excessive behavior.
What you are saying is when a cop stops me because he think I did a rolling stop late a night, I need to fear for my life because he deals with shit and is justified to have a hair trigger that he assumes I’m a deadly threat to him.
Not acceptable.
Even more dangerous is your attitude only cops can judge cops.
The attitude you display is the attitude that has tolerated the escalating militarization of our police forcec. The civilian public is the enemy.
I know most of the cops are good people. That truely want to help the community. Doing a sh*t job.
But the tolerance for the police training and relying on the overwhelming force is dangerous for our Republic and the population at large.
December 12, 2014 at 7:14 AM #781018scaredyclassic
Participant[quote=no_such_reality]Yes I do. I grew up guns. I’ve known since I was six that you KNOW what you are shooting at before you shoot. Mistakes happen. Pulling the trigger fifteen times is not a mistake.
Their job is tough isn’t an excuse to kill people because they are over their heads.
I know it’s a sh*t job. Go watch the video of Ramos spoiling to beat Kelly Thomas.
Quit making excuses for excessive behavior.
What you are saying is when a cop stops me because he think I did a rolling stop late a night, I need to fear for my life because he deals with shit and is justified to have a hair trigger that he assumes I’m a deadly threat to him.
Not acceptable.
Even more dangerous is your attitude only cops can judge cops.
The attitude you display is the attitude that has tolerated the escalating militarization of our police forcec. The civilian public is the enemy.
I know most of the cops are good people. That truely want to help the community. Doing a sh*t job.
But the tolerance for the police training and relying on the overwhelming force is dangerous for our Republic and the population at large.[/quote]
if the police do something unreasonable to one of us, we will suddenly hold them to much higher stds. Of performance.
For instance let’s say you call to report a burglary. Cops come to your house and cuff you to your kitchen table take the statement. Guns drawn upon entry of course. May have to kick in yr. Door to make sure you don’t get the jump on them. After all you do have a lot of guns in your house. You could be nuts. Can’t be too safe, could be a setup. Who knows who’s calling. No probkem.
Perhaps that would be “reasonable” in shifty neighborhoods but no CV?
also cops are kind of into the perceived danger and adrenaline. That’s why they pick that job.
December 12, 2014 at 1:04 PM #781027GuestI read and op ed by a DA where he said that he could convince and grand jury to indict, if he were asked. Not that hard.
An indictment is not a conviction. Should we at least have a trial? Seems like people are indicted for much smaller stuff all the time.
December 13, 2014 at 2:22 AM #781038Participant[quote=no_such_reality]Yes I do. I grew up guns. I’ve known since I was six that you KNOW what you are shooting at before you shoot. Mistakes happen. Pulling the trigger fifteen times is not a mistake.
Their job is tough isn’t an excuse to kill people because they are over their heads.
I know it’s a sh*t job. Go watch the video of Ramos spoiling to beat Kelly Thomas.
Quit making excuses for excessive behavior.
What you are saying is when a cop stops me because he think I did a rolling stop late a night, I need to fear for my life because he deals with shit and is justified to have a hair trigger that he assumes I’m a deadly threat to him.
Not acceptable.
Even more dangerous is your attitude only cops can judge cops.
The attitude you display is the attitude that has tolerated the escalating militarization of our police forcec. The civilian public is the enemy.
I know most of the cops are good people. That truely want to help the community. Doing a sh*t job.
But the tolerance for the police training and relying on the overwhelming force is dangerous for our Republic and the population at large.[/quote]
You must have missed all my posts where I rail against the militarization of police departments. And you must have missed where I’ve said that police abuse and unreasonable force does exist, and that we need to take steps to eliminate it whenever and wherever possible.
That being said, owning a gun is nothing at all like being in the position that cops find themselves in when dealing with violent criminals who have proven to be armed and very dangerous.
Do we need to demilitarize police departments? Yes!!! (Funny how they don’t have money for pensions or capital improvements, but there is plenty of money for this militarization, no? Even if it’s federal money, the money seems to find its way into the coffers when the PTB want it there.) Do we need to train cops to better respect people’s civil rights? Yes!!!
Do we also need to explain to criminals that if you don’t obey a police officer’s command, bad things might happen? Yes to that, as well.
Sorry, but the life of a criminal does not trump the life of a cop.
FWIW, I’m not the biggest fan of a lot of cops. I think too many of them have power trips and feel as though they are above everyone else. I dislike these cops rather intensely, but I also respect their right to defend themselves against violent criminals.
December 13, 2014 at 8:12 AM #781039spdrun
ParticipantDepends which criminal and which cop. I don’t consider selling loose cigarettes a real crime, more of a minor infraction on the level of speeding or jaywalking.
Any cop who arrests someone for this sort of thing is a blithering idiot who every taxpayer should hate. We’re talking about maybe a $10 loss of revenue for the state vs $150 per night to keep him in jail until he sees a judge in a few days.
As far as cops vs criminals: really depends which cop and which criminal. A cop might be worth more to society than Charles Manson. But likely worth less than (say) a jaywalking doctor, even if the doctor is resisting arrest.
Enforcement SHOULD be discretionary and as minimal as possible unless someone is actually being harmed. It’s not only a question of over-militarization. It’s an issue of zero tolerance equaling zero brain.
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