OT: And you thought public employee unions were out of hand

[CA renter]

[quote=CDMA ENG][quote=CA renter]CE,

You’re familiar with how hard you’ve worked, but you’re not familiar with how hard others have worked to get wherever they are. Getting a degree is just one part of the equation. Some jobs that don’t require degrees are much more difficult than many jobs that do require degrees; it’s just a different type of “hard work.” It’s condescending and presumptuous to state that you can do anyone else’s job, but they’re incapable of doing yours; or that you work harder than anyone else (especially those who are unionized).[/quote]

Show me where in this thread I said that.

Lastly it was your gal BG that was “condescending” to start. I would have never said anything if it weren’t for the crap statement. So direct your comments towards her and you won’t hear from me. I wasn’t the one who cast the orginal insult. Only responded to it.

Perfectly willing to let sleeping dogs lie.

Lastly I am not condescending. You will know when I am being condescending. I am perfectly willing to live with being label arrogant.

CE[/quote]

Not so much on this thread, CE. You’ve had this attitude on other threads over the years, particularly on the anti-union threads. But even on this thread you’ve said this:

[quote=CDMA ENG]
I have done this exact job as a non-union memember in Las Vegas and I can tell you the Union Guys werent that good. In fact many times my team was called in to do the job when the unions guy weren’t getting it done fast enough cause “this guy can only do this and that guy can only do that bullshit”.

So don’t tell me that shit BG about many Piggs being incapable… It’s insulting to the point I have to say somethine. Been there… done that… and stayed in school cause the jobs were a “nowhere” job and to expect anything more of it was ridiculous.

[Insinuates that the people doing these jobs are “less worthy” of a decent, middle-class lifestyle…that their jobs don’t mean very much, but yours does. -CAR]

Stage rigging is not rocket science though I will admit it is tough work to turn a show in 24 hours and a certian degree of can-do and creativeness is required. That is true of any job.

[No, it might not be “rocket science,” but most jobs aren’t…so? I know a few actual rocket scientists, and they aren’t making that much money. Do you think rocket scientists represent the pinnacle of human success? If so, then why aren’t they paid more in your “free market” capitalist system? Why do financiers often make more than rocket scientists? -CAR]

And yes… they dont make that much money but I dont’ want to hear that bullshit comment “union guys do it better cause they are paid too.” Terrible arguement that continues to be brought up evey other minute on this site.

I am tired of your attitude concerning the white collar profesionals on this site. You have a case of white collar envy.

Most of us weren’t born with a silver spoon.

I came from a lower middle class broken home. I worked construction roofing houses three stories in the air. I worked for AD Scenery (if you want validation of my story). I have done all of those Dirty fucking jobs to get to where I am today as a degree’d engineer and I know a lot of ppl here went to the school of hard knock as well.

[So you acknowledge that those jobs are difficult, even worse than your current gig. So why do you think they shouldn’t be paid well? -CAR]

So for once get off your high fucking horse. If you had it so figured out, which you want ppl to think from your 1 page “googled” rants, why arent you suceeding more in life? Don’t tell us you are exactly where you want to be and doing what you want to do.

I could be a cop… or a firefighter… Plumber… or any other of these jobs… Why?!? Cause like I said I had to at on point in my life and knew that it was a stepping stone to another better job. I HAVE THE PYHSICAL APPITUDE. I HAVE THE MENTAL AS WELL. As many ppl on this board do.

[No, you weren’t a cop or firefighter (or plumber?) before. And precious few people would say that these jobs are “stepping stones” to something else/better (Your jobs is better? You are more worthy than the people doing these jobs?). These are career-type jobs, not starter jobs. -CAR]

So stop making poor assumptions of other and saying stupid things.

I will do any job that I have to in order to make it in this world.

Right now, my job, as an engineer, is to tell union people and non-union people… how to do theirs…

[Maybe arrogant, maybe condescending…certainly not humble, which is perfectly fine. You’ve worked hard to get where you are, but others have worked just as hard to get where they are. Let’s respect the talents and hard work that each person brings to this world. -CAR]

Shove it. [Now that’s just not nice. 😉 -CAR]

CE[/quote]

Again, this wasn’t your worst post. It’s just ironic that you accuse BG of being condescending when you’ve been every bit as condescending (or more) over the years. I think you’re an intelligent, hard-working person, but you definitely come across as one who thinks everybody else is beneath you, and that you, and others very much like you, are the only ones who deserve to do well in life. It would just be nice if we could all learn to respect one another and support the great variety of people, from various professions, who provide goods and services that greatly benefit our society and improve our quality of life.

[CA renter]

[quote=CDMA ENG]On a seperate comment…

I am not really getting your point about the above posting by you… The one with the links.

You are kind of drifting between arguements and not drawing your debate to a close.

I will say I am all for intellectual property protection, which was a large point of the wikipedia link.

CE[/quote]

It seems a bit off because it was referring to a discussion about the battle between capital and labor. You claim that the employment/labor market is a “free market,” but that is absolutely untrue. Capital is in a much more powerful position than labor, and when you want to reduce the power of labor to every individual man for himself…well, it’s just comical. That is NOT a free market. There is unilateral power and knowledge, and a “free market” cannot exist in such an environment. Unions — a balance of power — are absolutely necessary if a “free market” is to survive and thrive.

The links show how capital will band together to gain more money/power, and this money/power is being siphoned directly from labor. It is imperative that labor band together as a counterbalance to the power of capital.

BTW, Ayn Rand was a **fiction** author/screenwriter, and many of her former, most adherent followers have admitted that she was wrong.

[livinincali]

[quote=CA renter]
The links show how capital will band together to gain more money/power, and this money/power is being siphoned directly from labor. It is imperative that labor band together as a counterbalance to the power of capital.
[/quote]

Public sector unions are often deemed to be the most powerful labor unions so when they square off against government are they really fighting against capital. Does the government equate to capital? Do public sector labor unions demand that pay increases come directly from increased taxes on capital or do they not really care where government gets the money.

[CDMA ENG]

[quote=CA renter][quote=CDMA ENG][quote=CA renter]CE,

You’re familiar with how hard you’ve worked, but you’re not familiar with how hard others have worked to get wherever they are. Getting a degree is just one part of the equation. Some jobs that don’t require degrees are much more difficult than many jobs that do require degrees; it’s just a different type of “hard work.” It’s condescending and presumptuous to state that you can do anyone else’s job, but they’re incapable of doing yours; or that you work harder than anyone else (especially those who are unionized).[/quote]

Show me where in this thread I said that.

Lastly it was your gal BG that was “condescending” to start. I would have never said anything if it weren’t for the crap statement. So direct your comments towards her and you won’t hear from me. I wasn’t the one who cast the orginal insult. Only responded to it.

Perfectly willing to let sleeping dogs lie.

Lastly I am not condescending. You will know when I am being condescending. I am perfectly willing to live with being label arrogant.

CE[/quote]

Not so much on this thread, CE. You’ve had this attitude on other threads over the years, particularly on the anti-union threads. But even on this thread you’ve said this:

[quote=CDMA ENG]
I have done this exact job as a non-union memember in Las Vegas and I can tell you the Union Guys werent that good. In fact many times my team was called in to do the job when the unions guy weren’t getting it done fast enough cause “this guy can only do this and that guy can only do that bullshit”.

So don’t tell me that shit BG about many Piggs being incapable… It’s insulting to the point I have to say somethine. Been there… done that… and stayed in school cause the jobs were a “nowhere” job and to expect anything more of it was ridiculous.

[Insinuates that the people doing these jobs are “less worthy” of a decent, middle-class lifestyle…that their jobs don’t mean very much, but yours does. -CAR]

Stage rigging is not rocket science though I will admit it is tough work to turn a show in 24 hours and a certian degree of can-do and creativeness is required. That is true of any job.

[No, it might not be “rocket science,” but most jobs aren’t…so? I know a few actual rocket scientists, and they aren’t making that much money. Do you think rocket scientists represent the pinnacle of human success? If so, then why aren’t they paid more in your “free market” capitalist system? Why do financiers often make more than rocket scientists? -CAR]

And yes… they dont make that much money but I dont’ want to hear that bullshit comment “union guys do it better cause they are paid too.” Terrible arguement that continues to be brought up evey other minute on this site.

I am tired of your attitude concerning the white collar profesionals on this site. You have a case of white collar envy.

Most of us weren’t born with a silver spoon.

I came from a lower middle class broken home. I worked construction roofing houses three stories in the air. I worked for AD Scenery (if you want validation of my story). I have done all of those Dirty fucking jobs to get to where I am today as a degree’d engineer and I know a lot of ppl here went to the school of hard knock as well.

[So you acknowledge that those jobs are difficult, even worse than your current gig. So why do you think they shouldn’t be paid well? -CAR]

So for once get off your high fucking horse. If you had it so figured out, which you want ppl to think from your 1 page “googled” rants, why arent you suceeding more in life? Don’t tell us you are exactly where you want to be and doing what you want to do.

I could be a cop… or a firefighter… Plumber… or any other of these jobs… Why?!? Cause like I said I had to at on point in my life and knew that it was a stepping stone to another better job. I HAVE THE PYHSICAL APPITUDE. I HAVE THE MENTAL AS WELL. As many ppl on this board do.

[No, you weren’t a cop or firefighter (or plumber?) before. And precious few people would say that these jobs are “stepping stones” to something else/better (Your jobs is better? You are more worthy than the people doing these jobs?). These are career-type jobs, not starter jobs. -CAR]

So stop making poor assumptions of other and saying stupid things.

I will do any job that I have to in order to make it in this world.

Right now, my job, as an engineer, is to tell union people and non-union people… how to do theirs…

[Maybe arrogant, maybe condescending…certainly not humble, which is perfectly fine. You’ve worked hard to get where you are, but others have worked just as hard to get where they are. Let’s respect the talents and hard work that each person brings to this world. -CAR]

Shove it. [Now that’s just not nice. 😉 -CAR]

CE[/quote]

Again, this wasn’t your worst post. It’s just ironic that you accuse BG of being condescending when you’ve been every bit as condescending (or more) over the years. I think you’re an intelligent, hard-working person, but you definitely come across as one who thinks everybody else is beneath you, and that you, and others very much like you, are the only ones who deserve to do well in life. It would just be nice if we could all learn to respect one another and support the great variety of people, from various professions, who provide goods and services that greatly benefit our society and improve our quality of life.[/quote]

Again. Only reacting to the orginal insult. I never said anything about others regarding hardwork and again you need to point your arguements towards your friend, as well, otherwise you have NO case and show yourself just as biased.

Your comments above serve as an attack because they are based outside of this arguement. I am willing to let that slide.

The rest of my family are all blue coller’ed too so I must think them all beneath me as well eh?

So leash your dog CAR, meaning BG, and I’ll leash mine… To carry on with the let sleeping dogs lay analog.

Again your side is casting stones and when some responds to it your side crys foul.

It’s like the double standard that Chris Rock once cited about “Fat women get to say mean things about skinny ones… But skinny ones can’t say anything about fat ones because it is just plain mean”

Bullshit… Turn about is fair play…

I don’t think people are beneath me. In fact I am known to be the guy that can relate to anyone in the room for any situation. At a party I am a social butterfly.

That being said I am tired of people:

1. Bitching about thier station in life and mainly doing very little about it.

and then:

2. Saying “You couldn’t do what I do” when that ability is soley centered around hard physical labor a some moderate intellegence activity and thier perception that sitting at a desk all day is somehow easier..

Again been there… done that… as a lot of people have on this site.

Never mentioned anything about others not working hard so stop accusing me of such.

Be Fair.

I am willing to accept those labels which are true versus the ones you accuse me of which are not.

I know who I am and exactly what limits I have. I do not think that I could be just anybody… I know that certian things are within my reach and others are not but I have met to many people in this life time that think they could reach for the stars and grasp them an not have a clue about what thier limits are.

This damn country breeds ppl under the notion that “All men are created equally”. Which it true if you read the context of the total quote but it is not true that we are all equal in ability. Some of us are better than other….

I will never be a marathon runner… Or a CEO of a major company or on the cover of GQ… Simply becaude I don’t have those abilities…

I know my limits and what I am capable of…

CE

[Leorocky]

Yep. Governments are not “capital”. Of course the response will be that public workers are the best and brightest and that public employers are graciously offering the guarenteed raises and overly generous pensions and arent forced to bargain with them.

These people never wonder what happens when the “labor” becoames as or more powerful than the capital – they just view it as theirs to take.

I never realized that in America I could invent a great product or service, work to develop it, convince a bank to loan me money (along with my own hard eanred money), start an actual company, employ people but then be forced to share “power” with them. Truly fascinating, err…..

[spdrun]

You always share power with your employees, whether there’s a union or not. By hiring someone to do something that’s important to the operations of your business, you’re giving up some power and giving them some power. Deal with it.

Your accountant could quit on April 14th 🙂

[Leorocky]

Of course, but not by force or the threat of harming my business

[CA renter]

[quote=livinincali][quote=CA renter]
The links show how capital will band together to gain more money/power, and this money/power is being siphoned directly from labor. It is imperative that labor band together as a counterbalance to the power of capital.
[/quote]

Public sector unions are often deemed to be the most powerful labor unions so when they square off against government are they really fighting against capital. Does the government equate to capital? Do public sector labor unions demand that pay increases come directly from increased taxes on capital or do they not really care where government gets the money.[/quote]

Public sector unions are more powerful now because the private sector workers have been brainwashed into thinking that “unions are bad” and “globalization is good” so they’ve lost their respective power.

A neutral government represents neither capital or labor; but it can represent one side more strongly if the govt has been taken over. Who do you think is controlling the government? Take a look at the following material and tell me, with a straight face, that labor is controlling the government:

http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

Look at corporate income taxes over the decades, as a percentage of GDP:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=205

And look at the immigration and trade legislation that has been enacted over the past few decades.

Look at the link in my above post regarding the secretive Trans-Pacific Partnership as just one example of the capital-friendly/labor-unfriendly policies we’ve seen over the years.

There is no way in hell anyone can claim that the govt is on the side of labor.

And, once again, public sector employees have been taking pay **cuts** since the recession started. Nobody that I know is making more than they were in 2008; most of them are making less.

And, in the past, raises usually came from increased revenues that were the result of greater economic activity (higher home prices/property taxes, sales taxes that result from more sales, etc.) and/or inflation. A government entity can use that money to build infrastructure (combination of capital and labor), hire more people (labor), give raises to existing employees* (labor), and engage in some back-room deals with favored developers and other insiders (capital).

*It is often necessary to give existing employees a greater incentive to stay because when the economy is very strong because many public employees leave for private industry if there is much better money to be made. During the housing bubble, it was very difficult to keep existing employees in the public sector because the mortgage industry/RE/flipping became so hot.

[CA renter]

[quote=Leorocky]Yep. Governments are not “capital”. Of course the response will be that public workers are the best and brightest and that public employers are graciously offering the guarenteed raises and overly generous pensions and arent forced to bargain with them.

These people never wonder what happens when the “labor” becoames as or more powerful than the capital – they just view it as theirs to take.

I never realized that in America I could invent a great product or service, work to develop it, convince a bank to loan me money (along with my own hard eanred money), start an actual company, employ people but then be forced to share “power” with them. Truly fascinating, err…..[/quote]

Great ideas are nice, but you would have a very difficult time starting a business (much less succeeding) without the social, educational, financial, military, legal, and physical infrastructure that *taxpayers* pay for.

If you want to get all the rewards, you should have to take ALL of the risks, and that would include having your creditors own you for life if your venture failed…no BK protection or limited liability protection in a country without taxes and government.

[Leorocky]

I *am* a taxpayer. I’ve already paid for and continue to pay for all of that. In this scenario, I’ve paid my legally owed taxes both prior to being a business owner and after (it’s kinda hard to get a loan when you have IRS liens, etc). As long as I pay my employees minimum wage I am doing everything correctly.

BTW, I never said I wanted all the rewards. I never said or inferred that I wouldn’t pay a fair wage, I simply said that it was up to me as the business owner. Certainly if I underpay my workforce my business will suffer. You think that every business owner is out to stiff their employees. That guides your entire existence and thought process. You view “capital” as the enemy. When in fact capital can be your neighbor, your father in law or some 24 year old geeky Harvard grad.

[CA renter]

I have a more traditional view of capital than you do. Small business owners are not “capital,” though they may very well depend on capital for business loans, etc. Most small business owners don’t make significantly more than their employees, so I’m not referring to them, for the most part.

As a matter of fact, many small businesses are handicapped by the capitalists I’m referring to. These capitalists use their power to control markets and distribution systems. They create laws that prevent or reduce competition. These are not small business owners, for the most part.

I’m talking about Big Capital — those who control the vast majority of our economic and political systems because they own or control most of our assets and resources. The capitalists I’m referring to rarely “work” for a living. They make their money by controlling wealth and power.

Here’s another data point that shows who controls our economic system and government: corporate profits vs. wages. As a percentage of the economy, one is an an all-time high, while the other is at an all-time low. Coincidence? I think not.

http://www.businessinsider.com/profits-versus-wages

http://www.businessinsider.com/profits-versus-wages

————-

Oh, and just because you pay taxes (as all of us do, including public sector workers who pay some of the highest rates due to their W-2 status), it doesn’t mean you’re paying the full cost of what you are using.

[Leorocky]

LOL.

“it doesn’t mean you’re paying the full cost of what you are using.”

So people who use food stamps etc., are paying for what they are using?

Please explain to me how a lifelong taxpayer who starts a business and then pays a fair wage is somehow not paying for what he is using….

[CA renter]

What you pay into the system and what you take from the system are totally uncorrelated. You might have paid enough into the system, but it’s equally possible that you have not. It really depends on what you use and what you pay for, personally.

It gets even fuzzier when you dig into the numbers. For instance, are poor workers “taking from the system” when they participate in taxpayer-funded social programs…or is it their employers who are “taking from the system” because they are not covering the full cost of their employees — many of whom are working full-time or more?

Does Walmart use more public resources than they pay for? Many would argue that they do. Certainly, they are very heavy users of our public infrastructure (roads, ports, etc.). Their employees are very heavy users of public assistance programs, and I’m of the belief that Walmart’s profits are possible only because the taxpayers pick up many of the costs for their employees. They’re also mega-users of our military infrastructure because the sea lanes that they use to ship all of those Chinese goods to us are protected by the U.S. Navy. They are also heavy users of our political system because our representatives spend a lot of time advocating for and writing laws that greatly benefit Walmart (often at the expense of customers, employees, and others). They also get many taxpayer-funded concessions from local governments when they build stores in their communities. I’m sure you get the idea.

It’s difficult to calculate who is a net taker and a net giver, but I’m willing to bet that a lot of people who think they are net givers are actually net takers.

[scaredyclassic]

there should be an app to calculate that.

also, i’d like to know my carbon footprint.

and how many days i have left on earth.

and how many hairs upon my head.

and when a sparrow falls.

it’s liek a bad marriage, once we start calculating to the penny our respective giving an dtaking..

[Leorocky]

By starting a company no one is taking anything, they are creating – wealth, jobs etc. I’d love to pay based on what I use but as I said before – how will all those poor people pay for all those benefits they get?

Employers are not required to “cover” anything when it comes to employees. A job pays a fair wage for the value added and may or may not have extra benefits (again, depends on the work and value add) It is everyone’s individual responsibility to prepare themselves for and to find work that takes care of them. The existence of government benefits does not mean employers are “taking”. Government benefits are an independent entity designed to help people who can’t otherwise make it regardless of whether they work full time or not at all.

[Author]

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