OT: And you thought public employee unions were out of hand

[spdrun]

Monthly Metrocard = $112.

Kitchen — I have a normal 4-burner stove, normal full-height fridge (though both are 24″(?) wide), dishwasher, and a usable amount of counter space. I cook fairly frequently.

I wouldn’t want a kitchen that’s less functional than what I have.

[PCinSD]

[quote=bearishgurl] I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad news here but law-enforcement hiring agencies cannot hire recruits who appear to be “borderline illiterate,” which, as public entities, would obviously reflect back onto them. [/quote]

I also recall that law-enforcement hiring agencies cannot hire recruits who appear to be “borderline psychotic” – as in failing the psych exam. That would obviously reflect back onto them. I’m pretty sure one of the posters here failed that test – the easiest thing to pass in the entire hiring process.

[bearishgurl]

CE, I think you might be be confusing me with other Piggs. I seldom ever regurgitate anything from the web unless I am furnishing links to the law or I am trying to answer a question for myself.

I would much rather ask an “expert” on the street and get the straight scoop, as I did on this thread today … with spdrun.

I’ve spent a very large portion of my working life reading police reports, many lengthy, and can honestly say that the vast majority of law enforcement officers were VERY literate. And all of these reports were before they had access to laptops in vehicles. They were handwritten on a clipboard or back at their desks in block printing. Report writing is a major component of a law enforcement officer’s duties and is highly scrutinized by their superior(s). Of course, it is one of the main criteria in judging a recruit’s fitness for duty at a POST Academy.

I’m glad to hear you like your job and have software at work to help you out with your administrative duties. Even if an inability to write coherently stems from dyslexia (I’m not saying you are, but I have known several attorneys to be), this has no bearing on intelligence level or job ability. It is okay. These dyslexic attorneys can read their own notes and address the court just fine (and they have people like me to write their papers).

It’s just that law enforcement personnel are held to a higher standard in this regard, regardless of their other job attributes. Any f-ups they make are often seen by multiple agencies, attorneys, judges, even news media and the list goes on. Many of them are involuntarily subpoenaed to the stand so often, some of them may as well have a permanent seat outside the courtroom with their name on it. Every single thing they do reflects back on their agency and they often find themselves in situations where they are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. It isn’t for everybody and most people don’t have the temperament for this kind of work.

I’m not stating here that I think everything law enforcement does is right. I’m saying that there is a WHOLE LOT MORE to the job than just being able to get through the obstacle course at the POST Academy. LOTS of people (like yourself) “think” they could do it and could last in the job long enough to eventually get a decent pension but the reality is that only a small percentage get hired as POST graduates because they fail at the interview levels … including at the medical evaluation and lengthy psych evaluation.

As CAR has posted here several times, the training curve for ONE urban law enforcement officer (or CHP/fire personnel in any locale) in CA is long, arduous and expensive for the employing agency. These agencies aren’t going to make a mistake by hiring the wrong person for a particular job as they always have plenty of candidates to pick from.

I see here that you are taking everything personally but you had it coming to you when you told me to “shove it.”

[spdrun]

Only on Piggington does a thread about Carnegie Hall employees turn into a flamewar about cops. *sigh*!

[CDMA ENG]

You had it coming as well.

As for my writing…

I do write in a unconvential manner and have worked on it for years. Agian I have things I would rather do than cut and paste from Word back to this blog to ensure I am being loud and clear.

You are insulting and you mask it in a lanuage that is condescending.

I am sure that there is a long line of people as the military is downsizing and those kind of jobs are in demand with ex-military. I still take expection to the fact you think a lot of us can’t hack it.

You are wrong.

I stand by my original comments.

CE

[bearishgurl]

[quote=CDMA ENG]You had it coming as well.

As for my writing…

I do write in a unconvential manner and have worked on it for years. Agian I have things I would rather do than cut and paste from Word back to this blog to ensure I am being loud and clear.

You are insulting and you mask it in a lanuage that is condescending.

I am sure that there is a long line of people as the military is downsizing and those kind of jobs are in demand with ex-military. I still take expection to the fact you think a lot of us can’t hack it.

You are wrong.

I stand by my original comments.

CE[/quote]

FWIW, I almost never cut and paste for this blog unless I have had to do some research days before posting and need to save it.

I write everything ON the blog itself.

Almost 100% of the time I have used spell-check, it has found nothing or 1-2 typos on even a 30+ pg document.

This doesn’t make me a “better person” but writing just happens to be my forte. I do it naturally, just like a person who has a natural singing voice (I don’t, lol). Everyone has their talents and writing just happens to be one of mine.

And I don’t have “white collar envy,” as you state as I consider myself to be “white collar.” (Not that blue-collar occupations are somehow less important than what you or I do.)

If you think I’m condescending, then you must either have thin skin or a chip on your shoulder, since that has never been my intention. I can’t do anything about this but if either of these things are true, you are probably posting on the wrong blog. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen misogynistic types attempt to rake me over the coals on this forum. Isn’t that part of the package here?

Carry on . . .

[bearishgurl]

[quote=spdrun]Only on Piggington does a thread about Carnegie Hall employees turn into a flamewar about cops. *sigh*![/quote]

No, spdrun, the thread was just another tired jab at unions, this time Local One of the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees in NY. I notice that XBoxBoy, who started the thread hasn’t contributed to it.

The reality is that Piggs, such as CE, who stated here that he has to “supervise” union workers (because they’re stupid and lazy??) and a few others very likely have “union envy.” They don’t like the deals that unions make for their workers and think it’s unfair to non-union workers yet they state they won’t belong to a union themselves. CE has in the past stated here a few times (on threads bashing unions, of course) that he could have been in law enforcement (almost always unionized) and he had all of the qualifications for the job, but in the end, he chose not to pursue this line of work.

It’s an old and tired subject here, but alas, it’s the law. Most of the state law in this area is modeled directly from Federal law. In laymen’s terms:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Relations_Act

When I post on these threads that it’s the law, the same Piggs just keep on with their tired rant about pay, benefits, pensions, etc of union members. When I suggest they take action for legislative reform and suggest ways to begin doing so, they all fall away like dominos.

I guess its easier to put your head in the sand and take it out intermittently to complain than to try to do anything about it.

So there you have it. A handful of executives employed at New York’s Carnegie Hall (gasp … is there actually such a thing as blue collar executives?) are making low to mid-six figures annually in apparently high-priced NYC (acc to SK) and it somehow turns into fodder for the same anti-union rhetoric by the same whiners.

Nothing surprises me anymore.

[CA renter]

[quote=CDMA ENG]You had it coming as well.

As for my writing…

I do write in a unconvential manner and have worked on it for years. Agian I have things I would rather do than cut and paste from Word back to this blog to ensure I am being loud and clear.

You are insulting and you mask it in a lanuage that is condescending.

I am sure that there is a long line of people as the military is downsizing and those kind of jobs are in demand with ex-military. I still take expection to the fact you think a lot of us can’t hack it.

You are wrong.

I stand by my original comments.

CE[/quote]

I don’t really want to get in the middle of this, but don’t you think you can be pretty condescending as well, CE? You often talk about how union workers are somehow less worthy than you when many of them are every bit as educated, intelligent, and hard working as you are. It goes both ways.

Besides, if everyone who could become an engineer did so (and there are a LOT of people who could do it, but choose not to), how do you think that would work out for existing engineers, like yourself? Be careful what you wish for.

As for the “copy and paste” accusations leveled at BG, I’ll throw in my 2 cents. I “copy and paste” because so many people here don’t do any research and refuse to believe what other, more informed (about the particular topic) posters have to say. It’s all about facts and evidence, and I would say that we need MORE posters to actually cite facts and data, not fewer. Opinions don’t really mean very much in the absence of facts and/or logic…and even logic requires a decent grasp of existing facts. I paste relevant text with the links because it’s very clear (and unfortunate) that people do not even bother to read the linked material.

As for your writing skills…I think they’re just fine. We cannot all be experts in everything, which is exactly why we should not all be engineers (or whatever you seem to think is a “worthy” occupation). It’s the division of labor that makes our economy and society thrive.

Let’s ALL show greater respect for what others do, irrespective of whether or not it’s union or non-union, public or private.

————–

In Iran, female engineers have displaced males, bringing down wages, etc. So they’ve decided to ban women from these university programs! They’re claiming that it “undermines the home and family,” but it’s equally because they are taking jobs from men…too much competition in the sciences. This is what happens when we create a situation in which only one, or a few, jobs are considered “worthy.”

And now, for another “copy and paste” job… 😉

“Female students in Iran have been barred from more than 70 university degree courses, popular British daily The Telegraph reported on Monday.

The new policy introduced by the Islamic Republic of Iran, resulted in 36 universities announcing that 77 Bachelor of Arts (BA) and Bachelor of Science (BSc) courses would not be offered to women in the coming academic year.

Senior clerics in Iran have become concerned about the social side-effects of rising educational standards among women, including declining birth and marriage rates. Critics have termed the move as a attempt to undermine the fight for women’s rights in the country.

The move prompted exiled Iranian human rights campaigner, Nobel laureate Shirin Ebadi to call upon the United Nations to investigate the matter.

Iranian women students have outperformed men over the years, where in women have outnumbered men by three to two in passing this year’s university entrance exam.

As per the new policy, women undergraduates will be excluded from courses in some of the country’s leading institutions, including English literature, English translation, hotel management, archaeology, nuclear physics, computer science, electrical engineering, industrial engineering and business management.

The Oil Industry University said that it will no longer accept female students, citing a lack of employer demand, while another prominent university, Isfahan University gave the same reason for excluding women from its mining engineering degree programme, adding that 98% of female graduates ended up jobless.

Ebadi, exiled in Britain, wrote to UN Secretary General Ban Ki Moon and Navi Pillay, the high commissioner for human rights, saying that the real agenda of the policy was to reduce the proportion of female students to below 50% – from around 65% at present.

“[It] is part of the recent policy of the Islamic Republic, which tries to return women to the private domain inside the home as it cannot tolerate their passionate presence in the public arena,” says the letter, which was also sent to Ahmad Shaheed, the UN’s special rapporteur for human rights in Iran. “The aim is that women will give up their opposition and demands for their own rights.”

The new policy has also been criticised by Iranian parliamentarians, who summoned the deputy science and higher education minister to explain.

However, the science and higher education minister Kamran Daneshjoo, dismissed the controversy, saying that 90% of degrees remain open to both male and females and that single-gender courses were needed to create “balance”.

It is noteworthy that Iran has the highest ratio of female to male undergraduates in the world, according to UNESCO. Female students have become prominent in courses like applied physics and some engineering disciplines.”

http://tribune.com.pk/story/424586/iran-bans-women-from-over-70-university-courses-report/

[CDMA ENG]

CAR…

That is just the way the market is supposed to react in terms of price from saturation… Women or men. The men banning the woman is no different from union action to control labor pricing. This way is just more mysgonistic and serves the point of keeping women in control and price fixing.

I did not start the flame war here. I had a knee jerk reaction to the comment that a “lot of Piggs think they could do the job…”. I am, of course, paraphrasing. I still think that is a crap statement.

Over and over I hear from blue collar “You couldnt do what I do”. Nothing pisses me off more. I “have done what you do” and many ppl on this board did also.

As for your comment about being condescending…

I am ok with that comment. I don’t precieve it because I am just stating the facts and when ppl don’t agree with them the emotive side becomes engaged.

You should try crossing a union line sometimes and have ppl spit at you and curse. While they are not being condescending they are being jealous and petty.

Somehow I was “granted” or “gifted” this position… Or maybe is was all the 80 and 90 hour weeks I worked throughout my life. So when you say “I say” less worthy… In some sense they are. Just the same way I am not worthy to be a brain surgeon or P.h.D. I didn’t work for it. So let be clear on that. When ppl complain about there position in life in this country it is usually because they didn’t work harder to achieve it. Let’s avoid the obivous exceptions to this like being raised in a Mississippi or inner city school system.

Do I have strong feelings…

Not as strong as you would think but yes I am anti-union… Never was when I was young and never will be when I am old. I worked along side those teams early on and had a distaste for them even then. To much “I don’t do windows”…

There are plenty of hard working ppl out there and they fear the same things that I do. To one day be outmode, to expensive, and replaced. Union or otherwise…

Don’t like where you are in life then do something about.

Joining a gang and threatening corporations isn’t doing something about it.

Find me arrogant… Fine. Many do.

As for you CAR… I have already said it. I think your policies are misguided but your heart is in the right place.

With BG its is something much different. Insidious is the word I would use. I am sure the DSM-V could put a term on it.

And BG is right about one thing… The only thing I will every admit she is right about…

My writing does suck.

BTW… Mysogyny was brought up. Last person I hired was a woman (an engineer)… and I dont’t think I have ever seen a mysogynistic comments brought up in volume here. Not saying it didn’t happen once though… but I also know Rich would not allow that to happen regularly so I have no clue what BG is claiming in that regard.

Peace out.

Hope this thread dies after this. CAR you are free to engage me on the PM system if you want too.. Otherwise we will just waste pages here.

CE

[CA renter]

CE,

You’re familiar with how hard you’ve worked, but you’re not familiar with how hard others have worked to get wherever they are. Getting a degree is just one part of the equation. Some jobs that don’t require degrees are much more difficult than many jobs that do require degrees; it’s just a different type of “hard work.” It’s condescending and presumptuous to state that you can do anyone else’s job, but they’re incapable of doing yours; or that you work harder than anyone else (especially those who are unionized). It just isn’t necessarily true.

Many public employees work incredibly long, hard hours doing things that most people would never want to do. Sometimes, it’s physically hard work; other times, it’s mentally hard work; and in some positions, it is incredibly difficult emotionally…seeing incredibly traumatic situations with dead and/or dying people (including children) who are conscious and begging/screaming for help, for example — and it happens more often than you would think. And then there are those who walk around with targets on their backs (cops), who daily have to deal with society’s most evil filth, who are known to have some of the most stressful jobs around.

So, hard work comes in many different colors. Just because you chose your path, it doesn’t mean that the path others have chosen is beneath you. You chose what you did because that is what interests you, and (presumably) it’s something you have a special talent for. Others have done the same. Please don’t mistake employees standing up for their collective rights as “white collar envy.” Nothing could be further from the truth.

BTW, I appreciate that you understand where I’m coming from — that I want ALL workers of all stripes to share a greater portion of the wealth they’ve created.

There is no doubt that you’re intelligent and hard working, CE. It would be nice if you could give credit to others for their hard work, as well.

[CA renter]

One more thing that has to be addressed about the “free market” in labor. I’m sure you’ll agree that a truly free market requires full transparency and a relative balance of power between buyer and seller. If one side unilaterally controls the market, then it is no longer “free.”

If we are to have a truly “free” labor market, then all job postings should have all of the compensation information advertized along with the job description. And all positions in every publicly held company should have the compensation for every position posted publicly (without names, though many will be obvious). If people really knew what everyone else was being paid — including ALL types of compensation — then at least we could argue that the market would be a bit more free. As it stands, the employer holds all the knowledge and all the power. I do not believe that such an unequal balance of power is suggestive of a free market.

Corporations work together to control compensation, so why shouldn’t labor be able to respond in kind? Note the article I’ve linked, below…this is just one of many examples.

This is from another thread, but it applies here. The points are numbered because I was responding to livin’s post in the other thread:

——-
[quoting myself]

Under no circumstances do we live in a democracy. Those with power (read: money) control our government and our laws, and they are becoming more brazen about it as unions and workers flounder. An individual capitalist — one who makes a living from capital as opposed to working for a living — will ALWAYS have more power than an individual worker. This is why unions were necessary to level the playing field between capital and labor.

It is only when working people join together with common goals and interests that they can put in place the checks and balances necessary to grow an economy that benefits a majority of the working population. Individual working people, all focusing on their own, individual self-interest will NEVER be able to affect the economy in a way that would benefit workers at the expense of capital (and it is almost always zero-sum).

As far as having an “educated electorate,” it should be obvious by now that most people hardly vote, much less understand the issues. And that’s exactly how “capital” intends to keep it. They control the MSM and the popular messages that become mainstream thinking. Haven’t you noticed that truly important issues like the Trans-Pacific Partnership are hardly ever (if ever!) mentioned in the MSM, while Miley Cyrus’ “twerking” at the VMAs is blasted to millions on a regular loop.

PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING LINK

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership

———————

2. “Growth,” does not necessarily correlate with a strong or healthy economy. It depends on how one defines growth: rising prices? increasing production and exports? growing debt burdens? How are the benefits of this growth allocated among the population of workers and/or investors? Are we using more resources than what is sustainable over time? All of these things help determine whether or not “growth” is good or bad…and it can indeed be very, very bad, IMHO.

And as far as those “socialistic policies” in Europe…the problems in Europe are primarily with the Mediterranean countries, and the causes of their problems are varied, but I don’t know of any of them that have been caused by socialism unless they have “socialism without taxation” (as tax evasion is a national pastime in some of those countries), OR “socialism with open borders.” Neither of those situations will ever work, for obvious reasons, but the problem does not lie with a pro-worker agenda nor with decent social safety nets; there is much more to the story than “socialism.” Some of the most socialistic European countries are also the most successful:

http://forumblog.org/2012/06/ranking-the…

……..

Personally, I define a successful economy as one in which the greatest possible number of people have their basic needs met, and one in which those who produce the most and work the hardest are rewarded the most. A successful economy enables the majority of the population to save for a rainy day/retirement and feel secure in their financial well-being, but doesn’t allow a handful of people to hoard an outsized portion of the country’s finite and/or natural resources to the detriment of the masses. A successful economy provides ample room for individual advancement as a result of hard work, but ensures that those who reap all the rewards accept an equal, or greater, amount of risk (with limited liability/corporate protection, bankruptcy laws, etc., that is not the case in our country).

—————–

3. You believe that, absent regulations and restrictions, there will always remain a balance of power and lack of corruption at the highest levels…ensuring that nobody takes advantage of their powerful position by manipulating markets and regulations in a way that benefits them at the expense of the many. I think this is quite naive. It has never happened in history. Capital and resources will ALWAYS flow to those who already own or control the greatest amount of wealth and resources. It is the very nature of capitalism. This is why I favor regulations and tax laws that seek to balance the power of the few with the interests and needs of the many.

http://piggington.com/ot_on_the_killing_floor_immigrations_impacts_on_wages?page=4

================================

Here’s an example of how just a few corporate “leaders” can use their weight to create an economic system where power is unilaterally in the hands of capital:

This is the article I was referring to.

“Having solved the problem of people not wasting enough time on the internet, Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg is now tackling his first real-world political cause: immigration reform. With a slick new non-profit group funded by tech millionaires, Zuckerberg is rallying Silicon Valley’s elite into a political force they hope might one day rival Wall Street. Zuckerberg’s political moves are of a piece with his career as a tech mogul: hugely ambitious, painfully awkward, entirely self-interested, and surprisingly successful. And he’s just getting started.

Earlier this month, Zuckerberg unveiled the vehicle of his political will: FWD.us, a bipartisan, non-profit political advocacy group that sounds like an iPhone app. FWD.us has attracted big names from both politics and technology, including former Clinton White House press secretary Joe Lockhart, Romney adviser Dan Senor, LinkedIn CEO Reid Hoffman, and Google chairman Eric Schmidt. The group hopes to raise $50 million to fund its lobbying for the passage of comprehensive immigration reform, which is currently making its way through Congress.

Why immigration? We need those smart foreign brains: In a Washington Post op-ed announcing FWD.us, Zuckerberg wrote that “in a knowledge economy, the most important resources are the talented people we educate and attract to our country.” To that end, FWD.us says on its website it aims to “establish a streamlined process for admitting future workers” and increase the number of H-1B visas that let companies hire high-skilled foreign workers to “continue to promote innovation and meet our workforce needs.”

The implicit argument behind FWD.us is that the U.S. doesn’t have enough high-skilled domestic workers to meet tech companies’ needs. This is a myth, and Zuckerberg and FWD.us are just the latest tech players to promote it. In fact there is no shortage of domestic IT workers, as shown in a new study from the Economic Policy Institute. While there is an unusually low unemployment rate among American tech workers (3%), they haven’t enjoyed the large salary increases that would signal a shortage. There is also little evidence that the foreign workers tech companies hire are any better than Americans. The real reason tech companies want to hire more high-skilled immigrants is that they can pay them less than Americans, since immigrants are in a more economically precarious position. More than 80 percent of workers hired under the H-1B program are paid less than their American counterparts, according to the EPI. This kind of outsourcing benefits tech companies while hurting domestic tech workers.”

http://gawker.com/mark-zuckerbergs-self-serving-immigration-crusade-484912430

[XBoxBoy]

[quote=bearishgurl]the thread was just another tired jab at unions, this time Local One of the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees in NY. I notice that XBoxBoy, who started the thread hasn’t contributed to it.
[/quote]

For a very simple reason. I said what I had to say about it, and that was that. Personally I don’t care to engage in the lengthy meaningless flame wars that this thread has turned into. My only point was that the pay for these guys was incredible.

[scaredyclassic]

at times, everyone’s work can seem kind of ridiculous.

the nature of humanity. pretty much everything we do is absurd, destructive, a patch to a prior problem we created, the product of strange lusts and desires, or just madness.

except for fashion. fashion is important.

[CDMA ENG]

[quote=CA renter]CE,

You’re familiar with how hard you’ve worked, but you’re not familiar with how hard others have worked to get wherever they are. Getting a degree is just one part of the equation. Some jobs that don’t require degrees are much more difficult than many jobs that do require degrees; it’s just a different type of “hard work.” It’s condescending and presumptuous to state that you can do anyone else’s job, but they’re incapable of doing yours; or that you work harder than anyone else (especially those who are unionized).[/quote]

Show me where in this thread I said that.

Lastly it was your gal BG that was “condescending” to start. I would have never said anything if it weren’t for the crap statement. So direct your comments towards her and you won’t hear from me. I wasn’t the one who cast the orginal insult. Only responded to it.

Perfectly willing to let sleeping dogs lie.

Lastly I am not condescending. You will know when I am being condescending. I am perfectly willing to live with being label arrogant.

CE

[CDMA ENG]

On a seperate comment…

I am not really getting your point about the above posting by you… The one with the links.

You are kind of drifting between arguements and not drawing your debate to a close.

I will say I am all for intellectual property protection, which was a large point of the wikipedia link.

CE

[Author]

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