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CA renter.
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October 22, 2011 at 8:44 PM #731167October 22, 2011 at 9:33 PM #731171
bearishgurl
Participant[quote-70Degrees]…That Indian lawyer cant sit down in a room and talk to me about my family and my kids, and take me out for lunch and build my confidence that he can handle my case. So what happens is the smart American firm figures out that the relationship and the complex law can be handled locally, and they can hand off the routine stuff to someone better suited to do the job (in india), with the American continuing to manage the relationship…[/quote]
Sorry, 70Degrees, I don’t see this happening. Please tell us how an Indian citizen living in India can obtain an American Paralegal Certificate or Degree approved by the American Bar Assn (ABA). As far as I am aware, there are no (online) classes which will convey this type of credential. And, while you’re “researching,” why don’t you cull the “want ads” for this profession to find out if law firms in the US (and CA) will even consider a candidate from a non-ABA-approved school.
You appear to be trying here to make this sound “plausible” but every single state has different laws so you FAIL on this premise.
And GOOD LUCK with the (abroad) “Indian” with “imitation slang-English skills” learning this stuff which is best left to “locals,” LOL!
October 22, 2011 at 10:59 PM #731174CA renter
Participant[quote=GH][quote=CA renter]Next, we’ll off-shore all the tech jobs, then the medical services jobs that don’t need to be performed here. Then, we’ll off-shore all our financial services jobs, since there are plenty of people around the world who would gladly do those jobs for a tiny fraction of what our financiers are being paid. Of course, we need to off-shore our legal work. A well-trained attorney in India can do what a lawyer does here for 1/10 of the cost. Best of all, we won’t have to provide health benefits or 401ks or any other kind of benefit for anyone, since there are billions of people around the world who can easily take every single American job and do it for a fraction of the cost!
Life will be grand when every American is working for $10/day!!!! All our problems will be solved![/quote]
Are we as far from this goal as your post might have one believe?
X-rays are evaluated by doctors in India
Software is primarily written in India
Most contracts and general non court room law is handled in India
Chances are your taxes are completed in India or Philippines
There is a 95% chance every item in your home is made in ChinaI tried to explain to my California Park Ranger brother in law he lost his job because I lost mine, but he could not see where the $10,000 a year I used to pay in California tax had anything to do with his job??? Go figure??? For the past three years I have filed a LOSS tax return which cannot go on forever so hopefully I am figuring out the new world, but the State no matter what they raise taxes to cannot get one cent out of me. The plan?[/quote]
Absolutely, we have been spiraling in this direction for decades. I guess that was my point. We have a “pension/public union” crisis because there was a private sector crisis (the off-shoring of the sheeples’ jobs — and the only ones protesting this were the union workers, BTW).
At what point do we decide to get in front of it and turn it around; or, are we just supposed to drag everyone else down with those who have already been taken out?
I’d rather see EVERY American worker benefit from the reversal of the trends of the past ~30 years. I’m not at all advocating for public unions alone. It’s just that I understand how tearing down the few remaining unions (and the few remaining decent jobs) will cause the rug to be pulled out from everyone else as well.
October 22, 2011 at 11:58 PM #731176equalizer
Participant[quote=bearishgurl][quote-70Degrees]…That Indian lawyer cant sit down in a room and talk to me about my family and my kids, and take me out for lunch and build my confidence that he can handle my case. So what happens is the smart American firm figures out that the relationship and the complex law can be handled locally, and they can hand off the routine stuff to someone better suited to do the job (in india), with the American continuing to manage the relationship…[/quote]
Sorry, 70Degrees, I don’t see this happening. Please tell us how an Indian citizen living in India can obtain an American Paralegal Certificate or Degree approved by the American Bar Assn (ABA). As far as I am aware, there are no (online) classes which will convey this type of credential. And, while you’re “researching,” why don’t you cull the “want ads” for this profession to find out if law firms in the US (and CA) will even consider a candidate from a non-ABA-approved school.
You appear to be trying here to make this sound “plausible” but every single state has different laws so you FAIL on this premise.
And GOOD LUCK with the (abroad) “Indian” with “imitation slang-English skills” learning this stuff which is best left to “locals,” LOL![/quote]
Your personal conjectures are in direct conflict with opinions of NYC law firms.ABA Formal Opinion 08-451 provides limited approval of outsourcing in 2008 decision. Why would they do this? Because the bar represents interests of big clients?
Basic document review is done overseas which would be done by paralegals or junior associates here.
Unless you go to a top law school, it would be foolish to get into big debt for law school. The 2008 crash caused companies to actually look at their bills and demand a stop to runaway bills from law firms.(My Firsthand American experience, no value judgment, xenophophia intended before anyone complains)
I was in India last year and it certainly seems like a fourth world nation in terms of lack of infrastructure, traffic, etc. It seems that everyone you meet in public places (stores, etc) is a complete “moron”. There is almost ZERO customer service – It was the most frustrating experience. I was told wages are so ridiculously low for service sector so that is why most places are filled with “morons”. It is difficult to believe by walking around public places that there are any smart people in that country or that anything can actually get done. But the fact that there are a few smart people(at least 0.1%, or one million people) in that country who can actually produce something of value in the face of the overwhelming odds – bureaucracies, political infighting, terrorism, pollution, scorching heat, floods – is amazing.Computers are still expensive for most and the internet connections are not stable and still expensive. (Multinationals have their own high speed lines) As the price of PCs and smart phones drop and American English becomes more widely spoken, we may face more competition here, especially if the smartest Indians stop leaving India for better opportunities outside India.
So I call them morons and you mock their language skills. Yeah, that is really going to stop the outsourcing.
http://www.nixonpeabody.com/linked_media/publications/offshore_outsourcing_ortego_eisenberg.pdf
October 23, 2011 at 8:58 AM #731179DomoArigato
ParticipantI for one look forward to the day when we are all making $2.25 an hour.
October 23, 2011 at 2:15 PM #731198Participant[quote=equalizer] . . . So I call them morons and you mock their language skills. Yeah, that is really going to stop the outsourcing. . . [/quote]
Working in the law in the United States requires *superior* English skills. Superior skills when transcribing from tape (from different American dialects and from people who may be in distress while speaking), superior skills when interviewing clients, superior skills when studying (and “shepardizing”) relevant case law to a given problem, superior skills when preparing moving papers, interrogatories, responses, memoranda, correspondence, etc and SUPERIOR ADVANCED knowledge of word-processing programs (“cold” and not have to look up functions as there is no time for that). As a paralegal, you are preparing documents which will be read by a US judge (or panel of judges).
Sorry, but Indian paralegals (located in India) not only is logistically impossible, but whatever “English” they may have learned to be nice and helpful in an Indian “call-center” used by US companies won’t fly in this area.
Yes, there are MANY Indian attorneys in the US. HOWEVER, they were educated here and live and work here. And even most of THEM have language deficiencies. That’s why they native English-speaking paralegals.
Having cleaned up a LOT of legal work originally prepared by non-native English speakers, I know what I am talking about here.
October 23, 2011 at 4:31 PM #731199
CoronitaParticipant[quote=bearishgurl][quote=equalizer] . . . So I call them morons and you mock their language skills. Yeah, that is really going to stop the outsourcing. . . [/quote]
Working in the law in the United States requires *superior* English skills. Superior skills when transcribing from tape (from different American dialects and from people who may be in distress while speaking), superior skills when interviewing clients, superior skills when studying (and “shepardizing”) relevant case law to a given problem, superior skills when preparing moving papers, interrogatories, responses, memoranda, correspondence, etc and SUPERIOR ADVANCED knowledge of word-processing programs (“cold” and not have to look up functions as there is no time for that). As a paralegal, you are preparing documents which will be read by a US judge (or panel of judges).
Sorry, but Indian paralegals (located in India) not only is logistically impossible, but whatever “English” they may have learned to be nice and helpful in an Indian “call-center” used by US companies won’t fly in this area.
Yes, there are MANY Indian attorneys in the US. HOWEVER, they were educated here and live and work here. And even most of THEM have language deficiencies. That’s why they native English-speaking paralegals.
Having cleaned up a LOT of legal work originally prepared by non-native English speakers, I know what I am talking about here.[/quote]
BG, with all due respect, most Americans do not have “superior” English skills relative to a some of the foreigners…For one thing, grammar is seldomly taught rigorously in U.S. schools these days, and second the reason why the entire legal system exists is because the majority of Americans lack the comprehension and English skills that are necessary to understand those pesky legal documents an attorney drafts up. Heavens forbid, if they actually wrote things in simple terms that average J6P could understand, they wouldn’t need to be charging $350+/hr for their words or $150/hr for a paralegal to photocopy a document. On the other hand, you have a foreign body of relatively well college educated foreigners that has taken English, gone through training,etc, I wouldn’t doubt their comprehension and ability to write to be better than J6p….
And let’s face it, while there are some good paralegals, most of them are not lawyer “like” in any way….. I was dealing with my attorney for a few months, and I have to say her paralegal was a complete moron….I ended up correcting her English and sending the documents back to her for her to “fix” on the final document…Of course, her screwups meant my attorney charged me $150/hr to fix. Nice huh? And no, I guarantee that paralegal was not “foreign” in any way..
October 23, 2011 at 5:52 PM #731201Participant[quote=Nor-LA-SD-GUY2]What OWS needs is a message!!
WHAT DO WE WANT !!
A BIGGER PICE OF THE PIE NOW !!
WHAT DO WE WANT !!
HIGHER WAGES NOW !!
WHAT DO WE WANT !!
A BETTER RETIREMENT PLAN NOW !!!
WHAT DO WE WANT !!
EVERYONE GETS A CALPERS ACCOUNT NOW !![/quote]They already have one, and public employees with CalPERS don’t get it. It’s called “Social Security.”
Which brings up another point… If we get rid of the pension obligations for existing public employees (who usually pay more into their pension plans than SS beneficiaries pay into theirs), we’d need to get rid of the Social Security obligations for private sector employees, too. I’m sure all you “taxpayer advocates” would be on board with that. After all, fair is fair, right?
October 23, 2011 at 5:59 PM #731203Participant[quote=flu]BG, with all due respect, most Americans do not have “superior” English skills relative to a some of the foreigners…For one thing, grammar is seldomly taught rigorously in U.S. schools these days, and second the reason why the entire legal system exists is because the majority of Americans lack the comprehension and English skills that are necessary to understand those pesky legal documents an attorney drafts up. Heavens forbid, if they actually wrote things in simple terms that average J6P could understand, they wouldn’t need to be charging $350+/hr for their words or $150/hr for a paralegal to photocopy a document. On the other hand, you have a foreign body of relatively well college educated foreigners that has taken English, gone through training,etc, I wouldn’t doubt their comprehension and ability to write to be better than J6p….
And let’s face it, while there are some good paralegals, most of them are not lawyer “like” in any way….. I was dealing with my attorney for a few months, and I have to say her paralegal was a complete moron….I ended up correcting her English and sending the documents back to her for her to “fix” on the final document…Of course, her screwups meant my attorney charged me $150/hr to fix. Nice huh? And no, I guarantee that paralegal was not “foreign” in any way..[/quote]
I’m sorry your attorney did not have a good paralegal, flu. LOTS of paralegals do virtually everything a lawyer does . . . except sign legal documents, take depositions and appear in court. A good one will just prepare and then give an attorney all the legal filings to sign, the attorney will sign it, the paralegal will file/serve it and the attorney will argue it and win! However, there is MUCH more to the job than that.
flu, if I might ask, what would you say the “age group” was of your attorney’s paralegal? Time and time again, I have found that the publicly-educated younger age group (under age 45 or so) has NOT received a very good education in English, spelling, sentence structure and composition, even if a “native” speaker. However, most attorneys, if given the choice, will hire a younger candidate over an older, more experienced one, due to the cost disparity of health insurance premiums. It doesn’t seem to faze them that a younger candidate typically wastes more time during the business day (w/cell phone & gadgets), does not know the “ins and outs” of the local system, and takes more leave of every kind.
Believe it or not, the vast majority of public schools were VERY good prior to about 1978.
I still don’t buy that an Indian in India can do this job. They couldn’t possibly understand all the local nuances of the job within each jurisdiction they are “performing” legal tasks nor could they understand how to determine whether a particular case is useful to a particular application. There is just too much English here to understand for a non-Native, ESPECIALLY one who has never even been to the US.
As you said, legal documents are not even easy for J6P, a USA native, to understand.
October 23, 2011 at 6:24 PM #731206Participant[quote=CA renter]…If we get rid of the pension obligations for existing public employees (who usually pay more into their pension plans than SS beneficiaries pay into theirs), we’d need to get rid of the Social Security obligations for private sector employees, too. I’m sure all you “taxpayer advocates” would be on board with that. After all, fair is fair, right?[/quote]
Lol, CAR, I’m sure private and public employers alike would LOVE to get rid of their “funds-matching” FICA contributions for each employee! How much do you think this would raise their “profit margins?”
This is a poorly-understood concept for all those members of the “general public” who do not have a state, Federal and/or law-enforcement defined benefit plan. The vast majority are unaware that MANY classes of public employees do NOT have a choice. They MUST feed a large percentage of their salaries into their own defined benefit plans after a certain age and DO NOT have the right to collect Social Security.
October 23, 2011 at 11:10 PM #731212paramount
ParticipantNo worries for the public sector though.
Gov. Jerry ‘Moonbeam’ Brown’s primary policy is to take from the producers (ie. private sector) and give what he took to the consumers (ie. gov’t workers, welfare recipients, etc…).
October 24, 2011 at 1:39 AM #731219Participant[quote=paramount]No worries for the public sector though.
Gov. Jerry ‘Moonbeam’ Brown’s primary policy is to take from the producers (ie. private sector) and give what he took to the consumers (ie. gov’t workers, welfare recipients, etc…).[/quote]
Seriously, paramount…did a public employee steal your wife away or something? You seem extremely bitter, on a personal level, regarding public employees. Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t you work for a government contractor? How do you figure you’re any different from the rest of the public employees who “suck off the government teat”?
All you’ve done is make personal attacks, without any understanding of how public spending works. You apparently don’t grasp what countries without government spending look like vs. those that have extensive public programs.
I’ve tried to explain to you how public pension systems work, but you keep coming back with painfully ignorant statements…and no facts or logic to ever back up what you’re trying to say. You’ve tried to imply that I didn’t understand anything about economics, and then proceeded to say (in that very same post!) that McCarthy was a Communist who was responsible for taking down private unions.
Can you keep your personal feelings out of it and try debating based on logic and facts? Otherwise, you’re just coming across as ignorant and bitter. You’re not making any valid points, just ranting. Try debating, instead.
…………..
Submitted by paramount on February 19, 2011 – 4:55pm.
One of the targets of McCarthyism was unions, including SAG.[Quoting CAR]”Not only that, the money from govt workers goes directly into the local economy. If that money is pulled out, how in the world does anyone think it would benefit workers in the private sector?”
I am an engineer by training and as such know very little about economics, but I know enough to see that you have even less knowledge than I do. Every dollar that is taken from the private sector to pay a government worker is one dollar less that would be used more efficiently by the private sector/producers.
In other words, gov’t workers are for the most part overhead.
http://piggington.com/the_pigs_are_famous_ok_act_cool_everybody_there_a_flood_of_new_m?page=1
——————Just for fun, here is an article written by someone who clearly wanted to prove that high taxes destroy and economy. Unfortunately for him, he wasn’t able to show any correlation. It’s also interesting to note that the nations with the “lowest tax rates” also provided universal healthcare and other, more generous social safety nets for their citizens.
………..
Here’s a tool that can help you see how high taxes affect economies and the well being of citizens of these various countries.
I’ve linked to the “distribution of income” stats. You can see how income distribution DOES seem to correlate with how well a country performs, economically, socially, and politically.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_inc_dis_ric_10-economy-income-distribution-richest-10
October 24, 2011 at 1:52 AM #731221an
Participant[quote=CA renter]Just for fun, here is an article written by someone who clearly wanted to prove that high taxes destroy and economy. Unfortunately for him, he wasn’t able to show any correlation. It’s also interesting to note that the nations with the “lowest tax rates” also provided universal healthcare and other, more generous social safety nets for their citizens.
http://www.businesspundit.com/12-countries-with-the-highest-lowest-tax-rates/%5B/quote%5D
Reading through this blog, this description of Germany stands out to me:
[quote=quote] As recently as 2007, TheNewEditor.com reported that Germans were emigrating at their highest rate since the 1940′s, resulting in a “brain drain” on the nation’s brightest and most motivated people. As a result of “high taxes and bureaucracy, thousands of Germans have upped sticks for Austria and Switzerland, or emigrated to the United States” — 155,290 during the year in question, which rivals “levels last experienced in the 1940s during the chaotic aftermath of the Second World War.” Furthermore, emigrants are generally said to be highly motivated and educated, while those immigrating to Germany are increasingly poorer and less educated — perhaps more inclined to consume Germany’s generous social benefits.[/quote] I wonder why Finland is not experience the same problem as Germany?October 24, 2011 at 2:55 AM #731222Participant[quote=AN][quote=CA renter]Just for fun, here is an article written by someone who clearly wanted to prove that high taxes destroy and economy. Unfortunately for him, he wasn’t able to show any correlation. It’s also interesting to note that the nations with the “lowest tax rates” also provided universal healthcare and other, more generous social safety nets for their citizens.
http://www.businesspundit.com/12-countries-with-the-highest-lowest-tax-rates/%5B/quote%5D
Reading through this blog, this description of Germany stands out to me:
[quote=quote] As recently as 2007, TheNewEditor.com reported that Germans were emigrating at their highest rate since the 1940′s, resulting in a “brain drain” on the nation’s brightest and most motivated people. As a result of “high taxes and bureaucracy, thousands of Germans have upped sticks for Austria and Switzerland, or emigrated to the United States” — 155,290 during the year in question, which rivals “levels last experienced in the 1940s during the chaotic aftermath of the Second World War.” Furthermore, emigrants are generally said to be highly motivated and educated, while those immigrating to Germany are increasingly poorer and less educated — perhaps more inclined to consume Germany’s generous social benefits.[/quote] I wonder why Finland is not experience the same problem as Germany?[/quote]An article about Germany:
“They are fed up, truly fed up. Fed up with the constant bickering over the costs of wage benefits, social reforms, elimination of subsidies, store closing hours and all the other symbols of a country stuck in bureaucratic and legislative gridlock.
They are tired of living in country where landing a job is like playing the lottery, a country where not even half of citizens live from gainful employment and a country in which even academics in their mid-40s are already considered problem cases when it comes to job placement. In other words, they are fed up with living in a country where all opportunities already seem to be taken: opportunities to succeed in one’s career, to own property and to achieve prosperity.”
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,446045,00.html
October 24, 2011 at 6:38 AM #731223The-Shoveler
Participant[quote=CA renter][quote=Nor-LA-SD-GUY2]What OWS needs is a message!!
WHAT DO WE WANT !!
A BIGGER PICE OF THE PIE NOW !!
WHAT DO WE WANT !!
HIGHER WAGES NOW !!
WHAT DO WE WANT !!
A BETTER RETIREMENT PLAN NOW !!!
WHAT DO WE WANT !!
EVERYONE GETS A CALPERS ACCOUNT NOW !![/quote]They already have one, and public employees with CalPERS don’t get it. It’s called “Social Security.”
Which brings up another point… If we get rid of the pension obligations for existing public employees (who usually pay more into their pension plans than SS beneficiaries pay into theirs), we’d need to get rid of the Social Security obligations for private sector employees, too. I’m sure all you “taxpayer advocates” would be on board with that. After all, fair is fair, right?[/quote]
If I could collect SS at 55 yes I would say they are even somewhat remotely similar plans but they are not.
OK let’s talk fair, California public employees can put in for and collect SS it seems fair that EVERY California resident should be able to apply and be part of CALPERS as well. -
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