- This topic has 51 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 10 months ago by an.
-
AuthorPosts
-
May 27, 2015 at 12:46 PM #786689May 27, 2015 at 1:47 PM #786690anParticipant
[quote=Jazzman]Where do you get your information? Western media?[/quote]From 1st hand experience.
May 27, 2015 at 3:24 PM #786698FlyerInHiGuest[quote=all]
This does not sound like communism, or even socialism. It sounds like any country with weak institutions.[/quote]That’s about right. We can look back to our robber baron days before Teddy Roosevelt.
May 29, 2015 at 5:46 AM #786787CA renterParticipant[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=all]
This does not sound like communism, or even socialism. It sounds like any country with weak institutions.[/quote]That’s about right. We can look back to our robber baron days before Teddy Roosevelt.[/quote]
Good thing we don’t have corruption here, right?
This is just one of many, many examples where private interests write laws and then lobby (bribe) the politicians to push them through. You can rest assured that they are going to $benefit$ from this lobbying. Billionaires do it, too. It happens all the time.
FWIW, ALEC is one of the more powerful organizations behind the attacks on public unions. Wonder why?
May 29, 2015 at 5:58 AM #786788CA renterParticipant[quote=AN][quote=all][quote=AN]Again, if not communism, then what are they? If you object to what they call themselves, then you surely would have a better name for them, right? FYI, there’s no such thing as pure communism or capitalism or socialism or fascism. I’ve never claimed that they’re pure communist according to the political theory. Afterall, they’re all just theories. How those theories get applied varry greatly. Especially when you take into account human nature.[/quote]
I already did – it is just another corrupt, authoritarian society.
You can interpret the communist manifesto creatively, but what you labeled as communist society is not described there. If the means of production are individually owned it cannot be communism. If there is accumulation of wealth by a person or a group it cannot be communism. If there are privileged groups (as in class), it cannot be communism.[/quote]This is the first time you’ve defined it as an authoritarian society.
BTW, how do you have a thriving authoritarian society with weak institution? It doesn’t make any sense to me. Don’t you need a very strong institution in order to exhert authority? Isn’t authority at the heart of an authoritarian regime?
[quote=all]This does not sound like communism, or even socialism. It sounds like any country with weak institutions.[/quote]
I’m not trying to interpret anything. I’m using the labels that they put on themselves. I agree, pure communism doesn’t exist and I’ve stated that. Communism sounds great in theory and that’s how those revolutions started. But add in human greed and other human nature, you have China/Vietnam/Laos/etc today. That is exactly my point. Pure theory sounds great. I would love to live in Utopia too. But that doesn’t exist. That’s exactly my point. You might not like that they call themselves communist but they do. That’s how they came to power. If China is not communist, then we’re not capitalist.[/quote]
All is correct about about the economic system not being communist if private individuals are allowed to own these companies.
What you’re describing, AN, is a corrupt economic system. Labels are always used to confuse the masses. It doesn’t matter if an economic system is categorized as “capitalist” or “communist” or anything in between. If it’s corrupt, and if it’s controlled by a few wealthy and powerful people, then it’s simply a corrupt, oligarchical/plutocratic political system. Economically, it can be a planned, mixed, or market economy, but the end result will basically be the same if the political structure is corrupt.
May 29, 2015 at 8:55 AM #786795allParticipant[quote=AN]This is the first time you’ve defined it as an authoritarian society.[/quote]
I said it in my mind when I first posted on this thread. I assumed the force was with you at the time.
[quote=AN]
BTW, how do you have a thriving authoritarian society with weak institution? It doesn’t make any sense to me. Don’t you need a very strong institution in order to exhert authority? Isn’t authority at the heart of an authoritarian regime?
[/quote]It’s a science (political).
May 29, 2015 at 9:10 AM #786796anParticipant[quote=all]
I said it in my mind when I first posted on this thread. I assumed the force was with you at the time.[/quote]
Riiight…[quote=all]It’s a science (political).[/quote]What’s a science? authoritarian society have weak institution? What’s so weak about Chinese’s institution? There must be something else you’re saying in your head again. Or maybe the force is strong with me.
May 29, 2015 at 9:14 AM #786797anParticipant[quote=CA renter]All is correct about about the economic system not being communist if private individuals are allowed to own these companies.[/quote]I’m not talking about economic system. I’m talking about communism tend to breed corruption and allow it to run rampant. Just look at all the real life examples. I’m not here to discuss theories.
May 29, 2015 at 6:29 PM #786803CA renterParticipant[quote=AN][quote=CA renter]All is correct about about the economic system not being communist if private individuals are allowed to own these companies.[/quote]I’m not talking about economic system. I’m talking about communism tend to breed corruption and allow it to run rampant. Just look at all the real life examples. I’m not here to discuss theories.[/quote]
Communism is a type of economic system. Corruption can happen under any type of economic system; it is not specific to communism (or capitalism). Corruption is the problem, not communism.
You can have a very powerful and authoritative political structure while also having very weak and/or corrupt (usually intentionally so) enforcement capabilities. In a corrupt economy — no matter the type — you tend to get a concentration of power in the agencies/bureaus that control things, and the individuals in charge deliberately weaken or corrupt the enforcement agencies. It’s been going on here, too.
[Edited to add that enforcement agencies can often be corrupted in addition to, or instead of, being weakened.]
May 30, 2015 at 2:21 PM #786828JazzmanParticipant[quote=AN][quote=CA renter]All is correct about about the economic system not being communist if private individuals are allowed to own these companies.[/quote]I’m not talking about economic system. I’m talking about communism tend to breed corruption and allow it to run rampant. Just look at all the real life examples. I’m not here to discuss theories.[/quote]
How so? What evidence do you have to support this? Saying you have “[first] hand experience” doesn’t cut it. Why is communism more prone to corruption than other systems? Isn’t it that systems which have shunned communism for capitalism subsequently see an increase in corruption? Which countries are communist? China? Vietnam? Laos? Cuba? North Korea? According to the Corruption Index only two of those are in the bottom 25% most corrupt countries, and one of them is North Korea, a totalitarian dictatorship, so hardly a credible contender. When I was studying in Soviet Russia, it always struck me how righteous both the West and Russia were. How can two opposing systems lay equal claim to the mantle of (superior) righteousness? The problem with convictions is always that the more tightly they are held, the more obtuse and discriminating they make the holder. I think you’ll find that corruption owes its existence more to the human condition than purely political formations.May 30, 2015 at 4:00 PM #786835anParticipantEvidence all all around you. But lets first define what corruption mean… Corruption is the abuse of bestowed power or position to acquired a personal benefit. Now, I will state that greed is one of human nature. All of the countries that are communist have a very strong power structure with a small group of people having all the power. So, it would be obvious that those people who are in power would want to abuse their power to acquire personal benefit. In a democratic system, when the person or group of people are corrupted and the people know about it, they will be voted out of power. In countries like China, Vietnam, Laos, etc., if the people speak up about such corruption, they will disappear. The people are aware of the corruption but they don’t want to say anything, because they rather live. This is why I said communism tend to breed corruption and allow it to be rampant. Plain simple fact is, greed is part of human nature. Communism is great in theory, but I believe communism doesn’t take into consideration that greed is part of human nature and when you allow a small group of people to be in charge and no way for the people to kick them out, you will have corruption.
Keep in mind that I did not say only communist country have corruption. Since greed is part of human nature, I believe corruption will exist everywhere that there are a small group of people with all the power. As I stated, there’s no pure communist country. So, when I say communism, I mean the countries that call themselves communist, not the actual communism theory.
BTW, you’re the one who ask me where I got my information and whether it’s from western media. I told you one of the source where I got my information from, and now you’re saying it doesn’t cut it. So tell me, where do you get your information from? Chinese/Vietnamese/etc media?
May 30, 2015 at 6:37 PM #786846CA renterParticipantAN, there is just as much corruption here, but in the U.S., the most powerful people are not the ones “officially” in political positions; they are the ones working behind the politicians. Think Wizard of Oz. They cannot be voted out, and if you threaten their access to power or wealth, there is a very good chance that you will be severely discredited, ridiculed, and socially ostracized (with the full force and power of our mainstream media); in jail; or, in rarer cases, dead.
Look at what happened to Occupy Wall Street and the original Tea Party when it was attacking the financial industry and the bailouts. The Tea Party was co-opted (and called a “terrorist organization,” with all that that implies) and the energy was redirected to being anti-Obamacare (courtesy of Obama who is simply a tool in the corrupt two-party system that serves a single group of masters). OWS was infiltrated and these people began pushing totally different agendas so that the bulk of the OWS protestors ended up losing steam and walking away — Occupy Wall Street became Occupy “Everywhere,” totally losing its original focus.
And there’s this:
http://rt.com/usa/fbi-assassination-ows-sniper-227/
And why is Edward Snowden still on the run? What about Julian Assange? Bradley (Chelsea) Manning? Some would think they should be celebrated for making our government more transparent.
The government isn’t just trying to hide information from “our enemies,” it’s trying to hide information from us.
May 30, 2015 at 6:48 PM #786847anParticipantCAR, seriously, you’ve lost all credibility in my eyes after your first sentence. If you think the level of corruption here is anywhere close to what’s in China or Vietnam, then you’re gravely mistaken. If occupied wall street happen in Vietnam or China, they would disappear. I’d like to see examples of custom officers here taking bribe openly and if you don’t bribe them, they’ll open your stuff for no reason. Custom officers over there will laugh and give back your $20 bribe. I’d like to see examples of city officials taking bribes for approving of projects and taking city general funds for personal use.
May 30, 2015 at 9:23 PM #786851FlyerInHiGuestWe have less need for corruption because we have an established system for former politicians to trade access to power for legitimate $ millions. There’s the revolving door to corporate jobs.
In some countries, a minister’s salary maybe a paltry $1000 per month. That’s why Singapore has zero tolerance but pays their officials the highest in the world. That started when they were poor.
Singapore always scores near the lowest in the corruption index.
May 30, 2015 at 10:25 PM #786852anParticipantIt doesn’t matter how much you pay politicians. As I stated, greed is human nature, which mean you will never have enough.
BTW, corruption is not acceptable here. So when it’s discovered, the perpetrator get punished. Just look at the cop who trade sexual favors for not giving traffic violations. He gets put in jail here. Over there, people wouldn’t bat an eye.
-
AuthorPosts
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.