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May 25, 2015 at 8:37 AM #786633May 25, 2015 at 7:45 PM #786644moneymakerParticipant
Sounds like China is trying to put some in check.
May 25, 2015 at 10:48 PM #786645JazzmanParticipant[quote=AN][quote=CA renter]It’s typical of capitalist societies, too. It’s natural behavior for humans who are on the extremely high end of the greed spectrum, and has nothing to do with a country’s political-economic structure.[/quote]Yes, it is human nature, but communism allow greed to go unchecked.[/quote]
And you think capitalism doesn’t? Of course there a controls against corruption in China. There is a huge clamp down going on now against regional corruption (if you can believe the media). First, you have to determine what you mean by corruption or fraud. There are restraints on the free movement of capital preventing you from taking money out of China. No wonder people ferret it out illegally. So what may be legit to some may be deemed fraud elsewhere.May 26, 2015 at 10:17 AM #786649anParticipant[quote=Jazzman]And you think capitalism doesn’t? Of course there a controls against corruption in China. There is a huge clamp down going on now against regional corruption (if you can believe the media). First, you have to determine what you mean by corruption or fraud. There are restraints on the free movement of capital preventing you from taking money out of China. No wonder people ferret it out illegally. So what may be legit to some may be deemed fraud elsewhere.[/quote]Again, not anywhere close to the same scale. We’re talking about billionaires getting their fortunes through bribery and being able to dictate what business succeed or fail based on whether they get a share of that company or not. All the while the citizens are dirt poor. We’re not talking about American “poor” either. We’re talking about local officials skimming from the top off road projects where the end result funding is a fraction of what it started out as and end up with poor quality roads due to lack of funding. The corruption starts from the bottom and go all the way to the top. I can go on and not, but point is, not even close.
May 26, 2015 at 10:31 AM #786651allParticipant[quote=AN]Again, not anywhere close to the same scale. We’re talking about billionaires getting their fortunes through bribery and being able to dictate what business succeed or fail based on whether they get a share of that company or not. All the while the citizens are dirt poor. We’re not talking about American “poor” either. We’re talking about local officials skimming from the top off road projects where the end result funding is a fraction of what it started out as and end up with poor quality roads due to lack of funding. The corruption starts from the bottom and go all the way to the top. I can go on and not, but point is, not even close.[/quote]
This does not sound like communism, or even socialism. It sounds like any country with weak institutions.May 26, 2015 at 10:52 AM #786652anParticipant[quote=all][quote=AN]Again, not anywhere close to the same scale. We’re talking about billionaires getting their fortunes through bribery and being able to dictate what business succeed or fail based on whether they get a share of that company or not. All the while the citizens are dirt poor. We’re not talking about American “poor” either. We’re talking about local officials skimming from the top off road projects where the end result funding is a fraction of what it started out as and end up with poor quality roads due to lack of funding. The corruption starts from the bottom and go all the way to the top. I can go on and not, but point is, not even close.[/quote]
This does not sound like communism, or even socialism. It sounds like any country with weak institutions.[/quote]If it’s not communism, then what is it? Last I checked, China, Vietnam, Laos, North Korea are all communist countries. Do you have new information that I don’t know about?May 26, 2015 at 12:34 PM #786656FlyerInHiGuestThere was little income inequality in communist countries before perestroika. Everyone was poor. But that’s a different story.
May 26, 2015 at 12:38 PM #786657spdrunParticipantThere was a lot of inequality — the top echelon was just very small. It was more like Tsarist Russia with the poor being slightly better off.
May 26, 2015 at 1:23 PM #786659FlyerInHiGuestI don’t think so, spd.
There was power and privilege, but very little private wealth.My dad was friends with the consul general of the USSR. He used to trade caviar for Bourbon and Cognac.
One example. The political class were given the use the primo apartments in central Moscow. But the properties still belonged to the state. There was only an informal market for trading the occupancy of apartments.
After the transition to a market economy, the apartments, now in private ownership are worth $ millions. Likewise, factories and industries, in private ownership are worth a lot more on the stock market.
May 26, 2015 at 10:26 PM #786669ltsdddParticipant[quote=moneymaker]Sounds like China is trying to put some in check.[/quote]
Xi certainly has been making a lot of noise. The question is, is he really doing it for the betterment of the people and the country or is it simply for personal political gain. I think it’s the latter. Just to decipher the information coming out from China is tricky in itself.
May 27, 2015 at 8:20 AM #786671allParticipant[quote=AN]If it’s not communism, then what is it? Last I checked, China, Vietnam, Laos, North Korea are all communist countries. Do you have new information that I don’t know about?[/quote]
Calling yourself communist does not make you a communist. Would you also argue that Deutsche Demokratische Republik was a democracy? After all, it is right there in the name.It cannot be communism if you have individuals owning shares of companies.
May 27, 2015 at 10:05 AM #786677anParticipant[quote=all]Calling yourself communist does not make you a communist. Would you also argue that Deutsche Demokratische Republik was a democracy? After all, it is right there in the name.
It cannot be communism if you have individuals owning shares of companies.[/quote]Again, if not communism, then what are they? If you object to what they call themselves, then you surely would have a better name for them, right? FYI, there’s no such thing as pure communism or capitalism or socialism or fascism. I’ve never claimed that they’re pure communist according to the political theory. Afterall, they’re all just theories. How those theories get applied varry greatly. Especially when you take into account human nature.
May 27, 2015 at 10:53 AM #786683allParticipant[quote=AN]Again, if not communism, then what are they? If you object to what they call themselves, then you surely would have a better name for them, right? FYI, there’s no such thing as pure communism or capitalism or socialism or fascism. I’ve never claimed that they’re pure communist according to the political theory. Afterall, they’re all just theories. How those theories get applied varry greatly. Especially when you take into account human nature.[/quote]
I already did – it is just another corrupt, authoritarian society.
You can interpret the communist manifesto creatively, but what you labeled as communist society is not described there. If the means of production are individually owned it cannot be communism. If there is accumulation of wealth by a person or a group it cannot be communism. If there are privileged groups (as in class), it cannot be communism.
May 27, 2015 at 11:43 AM #786687anParticipant[quote=all][quote=AN]Again, if not communism, then what are they? If you object to what they call themselves, then you surely would have a better name for them, right? FYI, there’s no such thing as pure communism or capitalism or socialism or fascism. I’ve never claimed that they’re pure communist according to the political theory. Afterall, they’re all just theories. How those theories get applied varry greatly. Especially when you take into account human nature.[/quote]
I already did – it is just another corrupt, authoritarian society.
You can interpret the communist manifesto creatively, but what you labeled as communist society is not described there. If the means of production are individually owned it cannot be communism. If there is accumulation of wealth by a person or a group it cannot be communism. If there are privileged groups (as in class), it cannot be communism.[/quote]This is the first time you’ve defined it as an authoritarian society.
BTW, how do you have a thriving authoritarian society with weak institution? It doesn’t make any sense to me. Don’t you need a very strong institution in order to exhert authority? Isn’t authority at the heart of an authoritarian regime?
[quote=all]This does not sound like communism, or even socialism. It sounds like any country with weak institutions.[/quote]
I’m not trying to interpret anything. I’m using the labels that they put on themselves. I agree, pure communism doesn’t exist and I’ve stated that. Communism sounds great in theory and that’s how those revolutions started. But add in human greed and other human nature, you have China/Vietnam/Laos/etc today. That is exactly my point. Pure theory sounds great. I would love to live in Utopia too. But that doesn’t exist. That’s exactly my point. You might not like that they call themselves communist but they do. That’s how they came to power. If China is not communist, then we’re not capitalist.
May 27, 2015 at 12:29 PM #786688JazzmanParticipant[quote=AN][quote=Jazzman]And you think capitalism doesn’t? Of course there a controls against corruption in China. There is a huge clamp down going on now against regional corruption (if you can believe the media). First, you have to determine what you mean by corruption or fraud. There are restraints on the free movement of capital preventing you from taking money out of China. No wonder people ferret it out illegally. So what may be legit to some may be deemed fraud elsewhere.[/quote]Again, not anywhere close to the same scale. We’re talking about billionaires getting their fortunes through bribery and being able to dictate what business succeed or fail based on whether they get a share of that company or not. All the while the citizens are dirt poor. We’re not talking about American “poor” either. We’re talking about local officials skimming from the top off road projects where the end result funding is a fraction of what it started out as and end up with poor quality roads due to lack of funding. The corruption starts from the bottom and go all the way to the top. I can go on and not, but point is, not even close.[/quote]
Where do you get your information? Western media? I don’t think we can really be sure of the extent of the problem. Corruption is by its nature cleverly concealed. According to the 2014 corruption index, China comes 100th out of 174 countries, so it’s not the most corrupt country. That doesn’t mean it isn’t a problem, but I don’t believe corruption is endemic to post-communist regimes. It’s everywhere, but is generally worse in poorer countries. US/China tensions no doubt magnify each other’s shortcomings.
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