CA Revenue comes in 6.5% lower than expected (and some common sense solutions)

[utcsox]

You still don’t get it, don’t you? Just because others are being hypocrites does NOT legitimize you being one. Your argument is weak.

[an]

[quote=utcsox]You still don’t get it, don’t you? Just because others are being hypocrites does NOT legitimize you being one. Your argument is weak.[/quote]
Who ever say anything about legitimizing one being a hypocrite? I’m just pointing out a bunch of pots calling kettle black. Many times, I see pots attacking kettles for being black, but failing to see that they’re black themselves. I just find it funny and I like to point out that pots are black too.

[gandalf]

Okay, not sure who made the comment about hypocrites and 401k’s but it makes ZERO sense whatsoever. It’s a stupid remark.

Objecting to fraud on Wall Street does not equal living on a commune.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=gandalf]Okay, not sure who made the comment about hypocrites and 401k’s but it makes ZERO sense whatsoever. It’s a stupid remark.

Objecting to fraud on Wall Street does not equal living on a commune.[/quote]

Gandalf: You’re exactly right. But, much like referring to someone as a racist, drawing that sort of false equivalence immediately derails any attempt at serious discussion. The radicalized elements on both the Left and the Right are excellent at this.

Its very clearly evident in the supposed “discussion” about public sector unions. Demonizing individuals who are supposedly making “millions” with their “gold-plated” pensions and benefits eliminates the ability to sit down and have a meaningful discourse on the topic. Same with “Mediscare” tactics threatening to “throw Grandma off a cliff”. Entitlement spending is a huge issue and one that needs to be addressed (and I include Defense in the entitlement spending conversation, because we need to start cutting there, too).

Unfunded pensions are also a huge issue, but we’re obviously not ready to confront the problem, given the nonsense being tossed around here, including completely specious accusations of “hypocrisy”. Thank God there are individuals who have NEVER been hypocrites in their entire lives. Must be nice.

[paramount]

[quote=bearishgurl]Lol, Domo, I can’t imagine you would give up a meager pension that you yourself fed into thru payroll deductions after 23 years of toiling in “the system” for low pay.

You stated yourself that you believe you make more $$ working for a private enterprise. However, if you have never applied to any government position, you do not actually know if you are “hiring material.” Until your lengthy application is processed, you take (and pass) the required written exam (if applic), you interview (sometimes multiple times with one agency) and ALL your background checks are run (and the govm’t employer is satisfied with “who you are”), you don’t even know IF you can even obtain a position with govm’t!

Until such time as you go thru the above described process, you have no idea if you have or would have had the “choice” of a public or private “career.”[/quote]

You make me want to puke.

The ‘gov’t hiring system’ isn’t even nearly that fair, you forgot to ask if by chance domo happened to be a white male. In that case a gov’t job wouldn’t have been a choice at all.

BG you are a clown, honestly. Should those of us in the private sector kiss the feet of a gov’t worker – I mean you do put them on a pedestal after all.

Generally speaking, in a high paying private sector job (100k+), do you have any idea what happens when you don’t perform? Let me help…you get FIRED!

I can assure that where I work, the hiring process is VERY rigorous and thorough.

[an]

[quote=gandalf]Okay, not sure who made the comment about hypocrites and 401k’s but it makes ZERO sense whatsoever. It’s a stupid remark.

Objecting to fraud on Wall Street does not equal living on a commune.[/quote]
I don’t think there are that many out there who are against objecting to fraud on Wall Street.

Having 401k most likely mean you’re working for the 1%. Isn’t objecting to the 1%, then turn around and work for that 1%, which make that 1% richer, make you a hypocrite? Especially if you choose to work for that 1% because you’re making more $ working for that 1% than working for the people?

[an]

[quote=paramount]Generally speaking, in a high paying private sector job (100k+), do you have any idea what happens when you don’t perform? Let me help…you get FIRED!

I can assure that where I work, the hiring process is VERY rigorous and thorough.[/quote]
I don’t think you need to limit it to only high paying private sector jobs. I’d say, any private sector jobs where you don’t perform, you’d get fired.

[gandalf]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Gandalf: You’re exactly right. But, much like referring to someone as a racist, drawing that sort of false equivalence immediately derails any attempt at serious discussion. The radicalized elements on both the Left and the Right are excellent at this.[/quote]

Good point. Shades of grey. We are all human. From this point on, I will refer to them as ‘Turnip Sharks’.

[DomoArigato]

[quote=AN]
I don’t think there are that many out there who are against objecting to fraud on Wall Street.

Having 401k most likely mean you’re working for the 1%. Isn’t objecting to the 1%, then turn around and work for that 1%, which make that 1% richer, make you a hypocrite? Especially if you choose to work for that 1% because you’re making more $ working for that 1% than working for the people?[/quote]

You can’t do nuance, can you? Is a parking ticket the same in your mind as a murder conviction? Are you seriously trying to make the argument that people shouldn’t be protesting against criminals on Wall Street just because they have jobs and 401(k)s?

For me to exhibit the same level of hypocrisy that EconProf is exhibiting, I’d have to tell other people to drop out of their 401(k)s while keeping mine. That’s not what I’m doing or saying.

I guess in your mind, no one should ever go to jail because we’ve all at least jaywalked or violated some other minor law right? If jaywalkers don’t go to jail then why should someone who embezzles $10 billion be made to go to jail? Why should a rapist or murderer have to go to jail if a jaywalker is not put in jail?

Hitler would have loved to have people like you in Nazi Germany. As soon as he took power, you would have proclaimed loudly and often that any statements against Hitler by those with jobs were hypocritical because any job would at least tangentially benefit Hitler in some way.

One of the things that separates the U.S. from Communist China is that there is a strong culture of protesting against the crimes of those who have money and power in the U.S.A. If you want to live in a society where seldom a discouraging word is spoken against those with money and power I suggest that you move to Communist China.

[Shadowfax]

[quote=AN]
Who ever say anything about legitimizing one being a hypocrite? I’m just pointing out a bunch of pots calling kettle black. Many times, I see pots attacking kettles for being black, but failing to see that they’re black themselves. I just find it funny and I like to point out that pots are black too.[/quote]

All this color stereotyping sounds a little racist to me. I dunno about you guys, but my kettle is red. (Uhoh, must make me a socialist!)

[Shadowfax]

BG and Para: You two both crack me up. Neither system is fair–for that matter, life isn’t fair. The best qualified candidate rarely gets the job, whether due to affirmative action, white boy cronyism or candidate fraud. But the world keeps turning.

I go back to my original point–I won’t let someone get away with railing against public employee benefits being “out of control” (or any other issue) when they are a benefitting participant. That to me is hypocritical.

And as for this 401(k) equivalency argument, just no. I have several 401(k)s. They are the only real investment vehicle for the middle class (other than owning a primary residence). I have worked at several different private sector jobs (so no, not a federal government worker, BG, though I have gone through the hiring process at several government agencies and never been hired). None of my employers, individually, have been members of the 1%. A few were probably in the 10%.

I have opened a 401(k) through each employer. The fund in those accounts were take from my salary. There is no guarantee those fund will be there next year or 20 years from now (holy shit does that scare me). I watch the numbers go up and down each statement. Only one employer had a matching fund program, based on reaching a certain number of years of service. Yes, some of the way these accounts are distributed involves investing in 1% corporations–like banks. I also received–and paid for–health insurance. It was terminated when I left each job.

Someone enlighten me: some public retirement plans are 1) paid in? Others 2) only kick in with government-paid funds once you retire and apply for them (no employee contributions)? Some are 3) a combination of the two? I believe #2 and perhaps #3 is where I take issue. If you didn’t sacrifice anything (a portion of your salary) and then are being paid to be useless…does anyone have a WTF moment there?

And don’t whine “but I was underpaid”. You probably made more than minimum wage…and you had choices. Quit and join the bloated salaries of the private sector. Oh, and by the way, those jobs aren’t so cush either.

So, the main difference in my mind with the latter benefit programs in the public sector is that they are the benefit that keeps on giving, even after you no longer provide anything of value to the employer or anywhere else! Who wouldn’t love to work for 10 years and then receive part of that salary indefinitely into the future, with no risk, and no adjustment for external factors–like Wall Street fraud or economic catastrophe? What’s the difference between a working age retiree and a welfare recipient? But don’t sit on your high horse and bitch about it when you are taking it in with the other hand.

But then the plan administrators (or the management advised by the plan administrators) got greedy and started investing in those “too good to be true” “sure thing” 1000% return investments, and were either too stupid, blind with greed or completely bamboozled by Wall Street. It’s unfortunate that the 1000% return on those pensions plans is now in a severe negative position. Do those people collecting expect the loss to be absorved by the rest of the tax base? I guess so. One bad decision after another…and the rest of us empty our pockets to pay them out. For being retired at 50–a prime working age–while they turn around and become real estate flippers or go into the defense industry. And bring home more tax payer dollars. [end rant]

[an]

[quote=DomoArigato]You can’t do nuance, can you? Is a parking ticket the same in your mind as a murder conviction? Are you seriously trying to make the argument that people shouldn’t be protesting against criminals on Wall Street just because they have jobs and 401(k)s?

For me to exhibit the same level of hypocrisy that EconProf is exhibiting, I’d have to tell other people to drop out of their 401(k)s while keeping mine. That’s not what I’m doing or saying.

I guess in your mind, no one should ever go to jail because we’ve all at least jaywalked or violated some other minor law right? If jaywalkers don’t go to jail then why should someone who embezzles $10 billion be made to go to jail? Why should a rapist or murderer have to go to jail if a jaywalker is not put in jail?

Hitler would have loved to have people like you in Nazi Germany. As soon as he took power, you would have proclaimed loudly and often that any statements against Hitler by those with jobs were hypocritical because any job would at least tangentially benefit Hitler in some way.

One of the things that separates the U.S. from Communist China is that there is a strong culture of protesting against the crimes of those who have money and power in the U.S.A. If you want to live in a society where seldom a discouraging word is spoken against those with money and power I suggest that you move to Communist China.[/quote]
Let me repeat what I said before. We all are somewhat hypocrites. Some are more than other. You’re trying to make things black and white, while what I’m trying to say is we all are some shade of gray.

Drawing that sort of false equivalences and accusations doesn’t make your argument any stronger. AFAIK, EconProf doesn’t tell people to return their pension check. He plainly said the pension system needs reform and it’s unsustainable. So your 401k argument of telling people to drop out of their 401k doesn’t apply.

Let us be clear, I’m against and appalled by the fraud on WS as much as the next guy. However, I don’t clump all the 1% into WS fraudsters. If OWS is restricted and focused on just the fraudsters on WS, I’d gladly donate to their cause. However, I don’t believe in their stance against the 1%. So, you’re 100%, not just 99%, wrong on the Hitler AND Communist China statements.

Feel free to exercise your freedom of speech. I have nothing against it. But don’t get butt hurt when people point out some of your hypocrisies while you’re calling others a hypocrite. I admit that sometimes, I’m a hypocrite myself. Which is why I said we all are hypocrites. To say, oh, you’re a hypocrite, so your argument doesn’t matter is basically saying no one’s argument matter, since we all are hypocrites.

[gandalf]

Great post, shadowfax.

You summarize things very well.

[Author]

Posts