Cashless Society

User Forum Topic
Submitted by FlyerInHi on October 25, 2017 - 8:51pm

Happening in China. They are leapfrogging us and gaining competitive advantage.

I don't like it.... but that's the future.

https://youtu.be/O753NUrD0hg

Submitted by ocrenter on October 25, 2017 - 9:10pm.

Brian, guess who is collecting data on all of the purchases?

Next thing you are going to push is for all of us to get on WeChat.

Submitted by ucodegen on October 25, 2017 - 9:31pm.

Every transaction has a fee attached.. like credit and debit cards. In the U.S. that fee varies between 1% and 3% - note that I am not talking about interest charges. It looks like Google/Android is forgoing such fees though.

NOTE: These 'advances' are not for the benefit of the people. China also banned crypto-currencies.

Note on WeChat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjkWpvOQnWQ
and on privacy: http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMHwVU-8BHM

Technology, while nice, can be a double edge sword

Submitted by FlyerInHi on October 25, 2017 - 9:36pm.

ocrenter wrote:
Next thing you are going to push is for all of us to get on WeChat.

OMG I have too many apps, wechat, line, kakao....

I think facebook overpaid for WhatsApp. We'll see what they make of it.

Submitted by spdrun on October 25, 2017 - 9:45pm.

They're not leapfrogging us -- they're screwing their own people into accepting a prison society. With the authoritarian instincts in the US and our nasty habit of mass incarceration, no thanks to more surveillance.

This is also happening mostly in large Chinese cities. Rural areas/smaller cities are slower to adopt. Maybe we should thank G-d (haha) for the rural, armed Bible-thumping "mark of the beast" crowd in the US, who'd literally start a holy war if the government tried to force a cashless society.

Submitted by ucodegen on October 25, 2017 - 10:07pm.

spdrun wrote:
Maybe we should thank G-d (haha) for the rural, armed Bible-thumping "mark of the beast" crowd in the US, who'd literally start a holy war if the government tried to force a cashless society.

or for a national id card/chip/implant/mark of the beast...

Submitted by FlyerInHi on October 25, 2017 - 10:12pm.

We will see spdrun.
Some people think I'm a China sycophant. But not at all. I just worry that we are not keeping up. While we worry about Muslims, China is inventing new things.
While we are satisfied that we are the greatest, they are learning and becoming high tech and making money.

You want to stay the greatest, don't you? You want to stay the richest?

Submitted by ocrenter on October 26, 2017 - 6:15am.

FlyerInHi wrote:
We will see spdrun.
Some people think I'm a China sycophant. But not at all. I just worry that we are not keeping up. While we worry about Muslims, China is inventing new things.
While we are satisfied that we are the greatest, they are learning and becoming high tech and making money.

You want to stay the greatest, don't you? You want to stay the richest?

it is human nature to be complacent and arrogant on the top. This is why the underdog often come up ahead, and it is often the guy trailing throughout the entire race that edges ahead and wins the race.

China is case in point. It was so arrogant and complacent of its mighty status that all others were viewed as mere barbarians. that mentality was the reason why it was unable to reform and implement Western thoughts and innovations but Japan (the guy running that distant 2nd in the East Asian world) was able to and turn around and launch a full on assault of China.

I see the US doing much of the same. Huge number of Americans are extremely ignorant of the rest of the world, and lack the most fundamental understanding of the competition out there. I do wish the average Americans can have half of the knowledge base Brian has.

The saving grace for America is ultimately the immigrants. Immigrants from the 40-50's (Jews and Eastern Europeans), immigrants from the 60-70's (Persians and Vietnamese and Cubans), immigrants from the 80's (Koreans, Taiwanese), immigrants in the 90's to now (Chinese, Indian, Arab), and ultimately the steady flow of immigrants from Mexico and other Latin Americans throughout the entire last century. Has it not been for this continuous influx of the world's best and brightest, America would have already started its decline several decades prior. Because it has been the immigrants propping up this country, no wonder White America feel they are being "discriminated."

Submitted by spdrun on October 26, 2017 - 6:27am.

You want to stay the greatest, don't you? You want to stay the richest?

No. Greatness is subjective.

Wealth? I want to be comfortable and relatively free.

I'm not competitive in the sense that my country has to be at the top of the pile.

I'd take less wealth for more freedom and less control.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on October 26, 2017 - 12:05pm.

ocrenter wrote:

it is human nature to be complacent and arrogant on the top. This is why the underdog often come up ahead, and it is often the guy trailing throughout the entire race that edges ahead and wins the race.

China is case in point. It was so arrogant and complacent of its mighty status that all others were viewed as mere barbarians. that mentality was the reason why it was unable to reform and implement Western thoughts and innovations but Japan (the guy running that distant 2nd in the East Asian world) was able to and turn around and launch a full on assault of China.

I see the US doing much of the same. Huge number of Americans are extremely ignorant of the rest of the world, and lack the most fundamental understanding of the competition out there. I do wish the average Americans can have half of the knowledge base Brian has.

The saving grace for America is ultimately the immigrants. Immigrants from the 40-50's (Jews and Eastern Europeans), immigrants from the 60-70's (Persians and Vietnamese and Cubans), immigrants from the 80's (Koreans, Taiwanese), immigrants in the 90's to now (Chinese, Indian, Arab), and ultimately the steady flow of immigrants from Mexico and other Latin Americans throughout the entire last century. Has it not been for this continuous influx of the world's best and brightest, America would have already started its decline several decades prior. Because it has been the immigrants propping up this country, no wonder White America feel they are being "discriminated."

I agree totally

I wouldnt have a problem with White middle America if they addressed their concerns with humility and humanity. But they claim to be the brightest and hardest working. All talk, no action.

I see Latinos work harder everyday. And I meet smarter immigrants everyday. My friend from Panama only has a HS but she speaks beautiful English because she reads a lot. She didn’t have education but she values it. There is no comparison between her speech and the vernacular of a “Real American.”

Edit: I think immigration is different in the 21st century. Immigrants become polygots and global citizens because technology facilitates that. They don't have to work their way up over many generations.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on October 26, 2017 - 9:03am.

spdrun wrote:

You want to stay the greatest, don't you? You want to stay the richest?

No. Greatness is subjective.

Wealth? I want to be comfortable and relatively free.

I'm not competitive in the sense that my country has to be at the top of the pile.

I'd take less wealth for more freedom and less control.

How will the president be able claim that we are the richest, most powerful country the world has ever seen? You know, the kind of feel good hyperbole people like to hear.

Soon, we will no longer be the richest in total and not even the richest per capita.

China’s urban areas are bigger than the whole of the USA. Some Asian tourists have told me that the USA is low tech; people live in isolated wood bungalows that could belong in the country. It hurt my American Pride a little bit.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on October 26, 2017 - 9:07am.

i cant think of literally anything i dont buy with a credit card.

even my 2.00 double espresso.

it would COST me a lot of money to transact in cash. i spend maybe 35k a year on the 2% back card, so id be losing 700.00 by carrying cash.

still, i carry $100 for old times sake.

the only thing people will need cash for is legal weed, yard sales, and panhandlers.

Submitted by The-Shoveler on October 26, 2017 - 9:25am.

Private party Used Cars.

Submitted by ocrenter on October 26, 2017 - 10:31am.

spdrun wrote:

You want to stay the greatest, don't you? You want to stay the richest?

No. Greatness is subjective.

Wealth? I want to be comfortable and relatively free.

I'm not competitive in the sense that my country has to be at the top of the pile.

I'd take less wealth for more freedom and less control.

China will not be great if it doesn't make the next leap forward in the 4 stages of development (economic, technological, social, political).

Xi seems to set to keep China's development within the confines of the economic and technological only and block the social and political growth needed for china to mature and truly be Great.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on October 26, 2017 - 11:17am.

I carry cash because when you go out with friends, it’s best to have cash so you can a split the bill. Always be prepared with cash otherwise you will have few friends.

Plus I like small independently owned restaurant, not chains. I don’t pay with a credit card at small businesses because it costs them money. And I think the waiters like cash. I don’t think my favorite Thai restaurant wants CC.

There are also some things to buy on Craigslist for home remodel/furnishing. I just bought a 5x4 vinyl window for $50. I rent out my places fully furnished.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on October 26, 2017 - 12:25pm.

ocrenter wrote:
spdrun wrote:

You want to stay the greatest, don't you? You want to stay the richest?

No. Greatness is subjective.

Wealth? I want to be comfortable and relatively free.

I'm not competitive in the sense that my country has to be at the top of the pile.

I'd take less wealth for more freedom and less control.

China will not be great if it doesn't make the next leap forward in the 4 stages of development (economic, technological, social, political).

Xi seems to set to keep China's development within the confines of the economic and technological only and block the social and political growth needed for china to mature and truly be Great.

I agree OCrenter, but that's how we think. If that's the case, we can just sit back, relax and watch them fail. Nothing to worry about.

The Chinese may prove us wrong. For example about the Great Firewall, everyone included Bill Gates said it would crumble in no time. But look at it from the Chinese viewpoint. Why should they let American Internet companies operate extraterritorially and reach into China, build customers and brands without licensing or abiding by Chinese rules? Now in hindsight, the Great Firewall allowed them to develop their own high tech. They could have failed and ended up with backward technology, but they didn't. Some of their companies are now the most valuable on earth.

In many ways, money and tech are freedom. Money and tech enable you to do things.
India and the Phillipines have democracy but that lack economics.

BTW, the Chinese political system is very much the same as our electoral college. We have democracy at the lower levels with direct elections, but the political elites respresented in the college elect the President. The electoral college does not need to abide by party or popular will. Our electoral college could act like the CPC if it wished to.

Submitted by cvmom on October 26, 2017 - 8:20pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:
I carry cash because when you go out with friends, it’s best to have cash so you can a split the bill. Always be prepared with cash otherwise you will have few friends.

I haven't done this in several years since the advent of Venmo/Square Cash/Paypal. Has made the bill-splitting, paying for piano lessons, etc. much simpler. Also I love having a record to go back to if needed (especially when dealing with kids!) and it is so easy/quick to do. Really have almost no need of cash ever.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on October 26, 2017 - 8:30pm.

i just bought a watch for 1,400.00. on a credit card. hard to visualize sending a check over to the uk for this fine glashuette germany piece of workmanship. hopefully, i will be wearing it until my demise, whenever that may be..

is that a stupid use of $? perhaps for you.

for me, i am happy to possess this small object, grateful for swift int'l trade, and amazed to have saved almost 1k off retail. in the tourneau in san diego, its 2360 plus tax, so over 2500. they might knock 1 or 200 off, but i doubt it. maybe 4 cash.

Submitted by spdrun on October 26, 2017 - 9:23pm.

I haven't done this in several years since the advent of Venmo/Square Cash/Paypal. Has made the bill-splitting, paying for piano lessons, etc. much simpler. Also I love having a record to go back to if needed (especially when dealing with kids!) and it is so easy/quick to do. Really have almost no need of cash ever.

Unless it's tax-deductible, why would you want a record? If you pay cash to a restaurant that you know, they're more likely to give you a discount and/or perks. Cash makes small businesses happy. No transaction fees, tips get paid directly, maybe lower other expenses, who knows?

I'd probably pay the piano teacher in checks since I'd need to 1099 anyway.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on October 27, 2017 - 10:01am.

You only need to issue 1099s if you own a business.
Even real estate investing is not business if it’s a hobby.

Submitted by ucodegen on October 27, 2017 - 6:57pm.

scaredyclassic wrote:
i cant think of literally anything i dont buy with a credit card.

even my 2.00 double espresso.

it would COST me a lot of money to transact in cash. i spend maybe 35k a year on the 2% back card, so id be losing 700.00 by carrying cash.

still, i carry $100 for old times sake.

the only thing people will need cash for is legal weed, yard sales, and panhandlers.


The way it actually happens with credit cards is an interesting study. Credit card charge transaction fees from 1% to 3% to all vendors accepting credit cards. Some credit cards also have yearly/monthly 'management' or 'membership' fees. Credit card companies have also fought any attempt for vendors to have different prices for credit buys vs cash (ie discount for cash transactions).

Therefore the 2% cash back might not be that great a deal with all things figured.. though it is a question as to who gets the shaft. Either way, the credit card companies come out on top.

Submitted by ucodegen on October 27, 2017 - 7:08pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:
You only need to issue 1099s if you own a business.
Even real estate investing is not business if it’s a hobby.

You also may need to issue 1099s if you are part of an LLC, or if you are part of an investment club.

Submitted by sdsurfer on October 30, 2017 - 12:50pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:
I carry cash because when you go out with friends, it’s best to have cash so you can a split the bill. Always be prepared with cash otherwise you will have few friends.

Plus I like small independently owned restaurant, not chains. I don’t pay with a credit card at small businesses because it costs them money. And I think the waiters like cash. I don’t think my favorite Thai restaurant wants CC.

There are also some things to buy on Craigslist for home remodel/furnishing. I just bought a 5x4 vinyl window for $50. I rent out my places fully furnished.

I'm glad you see it this way and I do too. I figure every little bit counts for a small business and they sometimes get strongarmed into the merchant aspect because the card companies work so hard to promote their rewards and use of cards while cash does not have a marketing campaign. I figure if I can save them a few bucks by paying in cash then it's an additional way to support small businesses.

Submitted by poorgradstudent on October 31, 2017 - 3:52pm.

There are a lot of places who slap a 50 cent fee on card transactions so I carry cash just to avoid that. Also, it's still the easiest way to split a check for a group outing. Throw enough cash on the table and let everyone else worry about their cards.

I also like using cash instead of running a tab, especially at places that hold your card.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on November 2, 2017 - 11:35am.

I didn’t verify this but my chinese friend said Alipay and WeChat Pay don’t charge payors or merchants which explains the very fast adoption rate even by street vendors.

Very interesting.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on January 20, 2018 - 8:52pm.

Interesting WSJ video.

https://youtu.be/75AXINUL47g

Submitted by FlyerInHi on February 7, 2018 - 10:45am.

So Apple will now accept AliPay in China
https://www.ft.com/content/b738c326-0bc7...

I upgraded to the latest iOS because I tried to backup my iPhone and there was an error message. I’m now annoyed that it keeps on wanting me to set up Apple Pay.
Time to ditch Apple for something else. I see the desperation to get customers on a mobile payment platform.

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