Yanking cabinets in foreclosures

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Submitted by EconProf on June 5, 2008 - 1:47pm

A contractor friend recently told me he knows of a contractor acquaintance who specializes in removing cabinets from houses in foreclosure in San Diego. They remove all cabinets and the homeowner sells them for whatever they can get. The contractor has a crew of three, does nothing else, and is very busy.
My contractor friend and I agreed this is wrong, although probably legal or else it wouldn't have blossomed into such a big specialty.
Hmm, what's next? The guy could warehouse the cabinets, then offer to reinstall them for the new owner: "Hey, I know these cabinets will fit perfectly, and I know just how to put them in".
He could even take before pictures to show the new owner what the finished product will look like!

Submitted by bsrsharma on June 5, 2008 - 2:29pm.

although probably legal

 

How so? If something is attached to the house structure, it belongs to the house. Sounds like plain burglary to me.

Submitted by waiting hawk on June 5, 2008 - 3:21pm.

Can i get a number homie ;)

Submitted by j on June 5, 2008 - 5:07pm.

This is why you make home "owners" put down a down payment. What, they forgot to get that down payment?

Down payments are coming back.

Submitted by Casca on June 5, 2008 - 7:35pm.

Brilliantly unethical Bob, so it's probably one hell of a business plan. I wonder if you could get a biz loan to get you started?

Submitted by Patience_is_a_virtue on June 5, 2008 - 9:28pm.

although probably legal

How so? If something is attached to the house structure, it belongs to the house. Sounds like plain burglary to me.

People remodel their home all the time. You are basically just walking away when the remodel is half done!

Submitted by temeculaguy on June 5, 2008 - 10:51pm.

I can't believe we are discussing the legality of cabinet (or appliance/plumbing fixture) removal again. Read some old posts, perfectly legal, criminally and civilly, it's entirely the banks fault for not requiring a down payment. They not only deserve it for giving no doc no down loans, I think it should be mandatory. Painful lessons are remembered. It was thier greed that caused this entire bubble, they caused you to face financial difficulties that brought you to this site and now you have pity on them?

"A fool and his money are soon parted" -Thomas Tusser wrote that in the 1500's and it still rings true.

Submitted by flu on June 6, 2008 - 7:31am.

Hmm. What do you think of this new business idea?

 

 

....

Coming soon to foreclosure near year, the cabinet escrow account.

Business model: we put your cabinet, fixtures, and built in appliances in a escrow account prior to foreclosure. After you and your bank reach "please walk away from this property and leave it alone" settlement and have transfered the required amount, we coordinate with you and your bank to release all fixtures, appliances, and cabinets back to the bank.

 

 

selfportrait

----- Sour grapes for everyone!

Submitted by Casca on June 6, 2008 - 8:29am.

You're thinking small potatos. Why draw the line at fixtures and appliances? There's copper wiring and plumbing behind those walls, and a ready workforce waiting in the Home Depot parking lot.

Submitted by jpinpb on June 6, 2008 - 8:35am.

You can get big dollars for recycling copper wiring. Help pay for the SUV and gas.

I'm not sure if this was discussed on other boards, as I can't remember where I saw it or heard it.

You can trash the place and take whatever out. You can't burn the house .... BUT ... you can take a bobcat to it.

From what I heard/read, you are doing a complete rebuild and just ran out of money.

Bank showed up to post notice. House gone - in rubbles.

That's one pissed FBB.

Submitted by dharmagirl on June 6, 2008 - 9:07am.

I'm closing on my house in less than 2 weeks. It was a REO. The previous owners only ripped the BBQ out of the island and the wine cooler unit that fits precisely into a kitchen cabinet.

But I've looked at homes that have had cabinets, thermostats, alarm systems, staircase balustrades, doors, vanities, and even windows removed.

It's just amazing.

I still dont understand why these people get so angry about being foreclosed on.

Submitted by Aecetia on June 6, 2008 - 9:17am.

Some people might consider it a case of frustration aggression. They feel helpless and by doing something like this, it gives them a sense of control. It also might be to punish the lender. It is hard to say. Maybe they feel like having bought at the highest point they got taken and this is their way of taking back some semblance of their investment however small.

Submitted by kicksavedave on June 6, 2008 - 9:47am.

The people who take these cabinets are truly the scumbags of the entire bubble/bust population. I don't blame anyone for buying a house with nothing down because a bank is foolish enough to let them do it. But when you stop paying, and the bank takes the house back, WTF makes these dirtbags think its right to steal, ruin, etc, the property that they never owned in the first place. It's barely legal, but 250% immoral. Guess that doesn't matter to some folks.

I have a new business plan. Cabinet Security Systems for foreclosed houses. AKA, a half dozen rattlesnakes.

Honestly, if Congress passed a law that states any house with a NOD may not have any physical changes to attached items made without bank permission, I think that would be 100% appropriate. It's legal now to trash someone elses property, make it illegal!

Submitted by Crown56 on July 21, 2011 - 5:51am.

Many posts seem to display a complete lack of understanding of the fraud being perpetrated on homeowners. In 2009 we were advised by legal counsel to seek a loan modification due to sinking property values. We had an ARM and became underwater on the house. Soon after my garage burned down...I'm just now tearing up a $20000 check written to me and BOA. We were referred to a home modification specialist by our attorney who promptly took over all communications with BOA, filed cease and desist papers and began collecting 'good will' payments monthly. Three years later BOA never saw one of those payments, there is an ongoing criminal investigation and I am being foreclosed upon...oh well, I make a good living, can afford the house, love the house and was so convinced by this attorney certified mortgage whore that we actually took $25000 from the insurance to cover contents losses from the fire and put on an addition to the house, new cabinets, granite, paint etc...I thought this would increase my equity in the home.

BOA would rather foreclose then allow me to get current and pay my mortgage. I am not a scumbag but I can tell you I will be damned if I leave a $13000 thamasville cabinet set as a house warming for next home 'owner'. Oh by the way, the cabinets and granite will look lovely in the home I just put $25000 down (that BOA wouldn't take for an offer to stop foreclosure). I bought it on land contract.

Submitted by flu on July 21, 2011 - 6:31am.

Crown56 wrote:
Many posts seem to display a complete lack of understanding of the fraud being perpetrated on homeowners. In 2009 we were advised by legal counsel to seek a loan modification due to sinking property values. We had an ARM and became underwater on the house. Soon after my garage burned down...I'm just now tearing up a $20000 check written to me and BOA. We were referred to a home modification specialist by our attorney who promptly took over all communications with BOA, filed cease and desist papers and began collecting 'good will' payments monthly. Three years later BOA never saw one of those payments, there is an ongoing criminal investigation and I am being foreclosed upon...oh well, I make a good living, can afford the house, love the house and was so convinced by this attorney certified mortgage whore that we actually took $25000 from the insurance to cover contents losses from the fire and put on an addition to the house, new cabinets, granite, paint etc...I thought this would increase my equity in the home.

BOA would rather foreclose then allow me to get current and pay my mortgage. I am not a scumbag but I can tell you I will be damned if I leave a $13000 thamasville cabinet set as a house warming for next home 'owner'. Oh by the way, the cabinets and granite will look lovely in the home I just put $25000 down (that BOA wouldn't take for an offer to stop foreclosure). I bought it on land contract.

oh my fvcking @#$@#$@#$@#$...I can't believe self-entitled people still exist in 2011.......

What happened to all the humbling that should have happened with an economic collapse...Oh, that's right...Our government has given people to feel like everyone is a "victim"...WTF??????????

This country is so screwed....Unbelievable selfish, self-entitled people who think everyone else owes them something...

anyone still wonder why this country is going to hell?

Submitted by bearishgurl on July 21, 2011 - 7:37am.

flu wrote:
oh my fvcking @#$@#$@#$@#$...I can't believe self-entitled people still exist in 2011.......

What happened to all the humbling that should have happened with an economic collapse...Oh, that's right...Our government has given people to feel like everyone is a "victim"...WTF??????????

This country is so screwed....Unbelievable selfish, self-entitled people who think everyone else owes them something...

anyone still wonder why this country is going to hell?

Take heed, flu. All is not as rosy as it sounds with Crown56. Read between the lines. His/her credit is obviously shot. He/she is purchasing their next home on a "land contract," lol. This likely is with an all-inclusive trust deed with an underwater "seller" who just needs Crown's $25K to "catch up" on house payments (IF they choose to, lol). Crown will pay the seller every month in hopes that the seller will use the money (along with part of his/her downpayment) to make their payments, taxes and other recurring expenses.

Crown56 will be on title as an "owner" but will not be liable for the underlying note(s) on the property. Unless a proper "change of ownership" is filed with the tax assessor, Crown will not receive any tax bills. If he does, the seller will have no guarantee that Crown will pay them and the seller's lender can hold the seller liable.

Only a desperate seller (or seller who could get a higher "sales price" from a sucker such as Crown) would enter into such a deal.

I am unclear if such a trust deed can be foreclosed upon. In this case, the "seller" may very well have to take a deed-in-lieu or quitclaim deed from Crown if he/she can no longer make the payments.

It's a lose/lose situation. Karma can be a bitch.

Submitted by Crown56 on July 22, 2011 - 5:40am.

No, you're both wrong. We are neither self entitled or victims. The point is we won't allow that. We had a 760 credit score when we sought to modify. Yes, our credit is shot; our home payment is the only credit we need with a healthy income. The 'land contract' is actually a mortgage held by the seller who owns the property outright. The house is worth what we are paying and our down payment actually represents equity. We pay our bills, we can afford a home, we don't want to be foreclosed upon, we are willing to come current with bank and have the money to do so...the point you are missing is the bank wants the home as the mortgage is insured in some way, otherwise they are simply very poor business men.

Please explain to me at what point in this story that we contributed to the decline of our great country. Your boundless cynicism and lack of faith in the American people is exactly why a sucker like Obama was elected to the white house. You make conservatives look bad. I'm all about personal responsibility and fiscal restraint. I'm also responsible for putting a roof over my kids heads. I'm paying the mortgage on a 15 year loan and in 7 years when the balloon comes up I will have significant equity to either secure a mortgage or sell for a profit. Of course you're next assumption will be that we live in a shit hole and home values will likely decline and so on...I will leave it to you guys to live that miserable life, I'm moving on with mine ( with my cabinets.)

Submitted by Crown56 on July 22, 2011 - 6:05am.

No, you're both wrong. We are neither self entitled or victims. The point is we won't allow that. We had a 760 credit score when we sought to modify. Yes, our credit is shot; our home payment is the only credit we need with a healthy income. The 'land contract' is actually a mortgage held by the seller who owns the property outright. The house is worth what we are paying and our down payment actually represents equity. We pay our bills, we can afford a home, we don't want to be foreclosed upon, we are willing to come current with bank and have the money to do so...the point you are missing is the bank wants the home as the mortgage is insured in some way, otherwise they are simply very poor business men.

Please explain to me at what point in this story that we contributed to the decline of our great country. Your boundless cynicism and lack of faith in the American people is exactly why a sucker like Obama was elected to the white house. You make conservatives look bad. I'm all about personal responsibility and fiscal restraint. I'm also responsible for putting a roof over my kids heads. I'm paying the mortgage on a 15 year loan and in 7 years when the balloon comes up I will have significant equity to either secure a mortgage or sell for a profit. Of course you're next assumption will be that we live in a shit hole and home values will likely decline and so on...I will leave it to you guys to live that miserable life, I'm moving on with mine ( with my cabinets.)

Submitted by flu on July 22, 2011 - 6:22am.

Crown56 wrote:

Please explain to me at what point in this story that we contributed to the decline of our great country. Your boundless cynicism and lack of faith in the American people is exactly why a sucker like Obama was elected to the white house. You make conservatives look bad. I'm all about personal responsibility and fiscal restraint. I'm also responsible for putting a roof over my kids heads. I'm paying the mortgage on a 15 year loan and in 7 years when the balloon comes up I will have significant equity to either secure a mortgage or sell for a profit. Of course you're next assumption will be that we live in a shit hole and home values will likely decline and so on...I will leave it to you guys to live that miserable life, I'm moving on with mine ( with my cabinets.)

1. I figured you're one of the neo-americans... True americans take responsibilities for their own actions rather than blame everyone else for their problems.

2. It's interesting that you equate being "responsible" to being "conservative".... Never thought liberal = "irresponsible", but thanks again for reminding me why this great country has so many problems...Too many people like you who refuses to take personal responsibility.

3. You're dreaming if you think you'll have any equity in the forseable future...And all you had to do is mention "balloon" payment...And that to me means you lost whatever shred of credibility I thought you *might* have had. Do you even know what you're getting yourself into?
Do you even bother to think that in the current economic climate that if heaven's forbid, you lose your job, get into some major health issue, and you are already stretching thin to make your minimum mortgage payments....How the hell are you going to come up with the balloon payment???There's a reason why it's called a balloon payment, you know....Do you have any plans on how you might pay for that or are you going to be a like a Jedi Master and "use the force" on that one?.....I feel sorry for your financial future..

It just amazes me that people who are in denial such as yourself still exist. You're worried keeping cabinets (probably worth 1/2 of what you paid to have them installed) and "pride of owning a home"....when you should be worrying about your overall financial health for the sake of you and your family. You're talking about "bling and doodads", when you should be talking/asking about ways to increase your net worth versus taking on more financial liability....(Yes, your primary home, unless you paid it off or rent it out to cover your expenses is called LIABILITY).....

But instead, you're going to continue down this ridiculous path of throwing more money that obviously you don't have at a non-incoming producing "asset" that you overpaid for....instead of saving your $$$ for your family's future...all because you are holding on to your "pride of homeownership". Seems to me like a recipe for disaster. Why on earth would any sane person with any shred of personal responsibility continue to drain one's own finances to chase after an illusion??? I hate to say this, but home ownership is not a first amendment right, in which everyone is "entitled" to be a homeowner. It costs MONEY, and for you to be bending and twisting to keep/have the "pride of homeownership" tells me you're in denial. Normally, I wouldn't recommend the book/info-tainment material by Robert Kiyosaki called "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" because I never could figure out why people would need to pay $6 for all that "no-shit-shirlock advice" that is contained in that reading material...
....Now I know why he does well...It probably would be in your best finance future to read it (borrow it from a library to save yourself the $6)...But I'm willing to bet you never will bother...Because like I said again, you're in denial of your financial future...

And thanks for asking, but my life is far from miserable.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 22, 2011 - 6:27am.

however many cabinets you have, you fill them up. That's why i think there should be a lot less cabinets. every family member should have one plate and one cup. perhaps and extra setting for a guest. silverware, ditto.

unfortunately, I have a lot of full cabinets. but i long for a minimalist cabinet lifestyle. in fact, eff it, i don't even need a cabinet. I think they didn't have cabinets in the olde days, they just had freestanding dish racks. one of those. we have too much, require too much to store it in and then when we get the boot, we have to take not only the stuff but the stuff to put the stuff in.

Submitted by flinger on July 22, 2011 - 8:20am.

Crown56 wrote:
Soon after my garage burned down...

Dude, Crown, how did your garage burn down?

Submitted by bearishgurl on July 22, 2011 - 9:22am.

Crown56 wrote:
In 2009 we were advised by legal counsel to seek a loan modification due to sinking property values. We had an ARM and became underwater on the house. Soon after my garage burned down...I'm just now tearing up a $20000 check written to me and BOA. We were referred to a home modification specialist by our attorney who promptly took over all communications with BOA, filed cease and desist papers and began collecting 'good will' payments monthly. Three years later BOA never saw one of those payments, there is an ongoing criminal investigation and I am being foreclosed upon...oh well, I make a good living, can afford the house, love the house and was so convinced by this attorney certified mortgage whore that we actually took $25000 from the insurance to cover contents losses from the fire and put on an addition to the house, new cabinets, granite, paint etc...I thought this would increase my equity in the home.

BOA would rather foreclose then allow me to get current and pay my mortgage...

Crown, I have several questions for you, if you don't mind my asking:

1) Did you seek legal counsel for a mod because you were only underwater or already behind in your payments?

2) Were your ARM payments due to reset or your mtg set to recast when you sought legal counsel on a mod? Did you pay interest only on your mtg for the initial term?

3) Why didn't you just approach your lender for a mod - without legal counsel? (In 2009, many lenders, including the Big Banks, were allowing modifications of mortgages they held which were due to reset to a much higher payment.)

4) If you had a fire loss, why didn't you deposit your $20K insurance proceeds?

5) During the months/year you were being "serviced" by the crooked mortgage "Modification Specialist" you were referred to by your attorney, did you ever ONCE ask them for proof that any mtg payment at all was being made out of your "good will" payments to them?

6) Why didn't you fire your mortgage "Modification Specialist" and take them to small claims court for your lost "goodwill payments" they hypothecated for themselves

7) Have you ever checked to make sure your "attorney" was a member of the State Bar? If he was, have you filed a complaint on him. (If it was his firm that hypothecated your "goodwill payments," this is one of the main causes in CA of disbarment.)

8) Since you apparently rec'd $25K from your fire ins co at some point, why didn't you offer all or part of it plus the $25K you are putting down on your "land contract" purchase" to "cure" your default with your mtg co on the house you love? Why didn't you hire a "reputable" atty or try to negotiate yourself with your lender a refinance of your loan into a fixed rate product, cure the default (or make a deal to cure it under your old loan terms) and keep the property you loved. (I'm sure you know now that "kitchen cabinets" were a very stupid way to spend your ins proceeds when you were deeply in default and in danger of losing your home.)

9) Was the property you gave up located in CA? Did you realize that "cease and desist orders" will not prevent a non-judicial foreclosure from happening in CA? (In 2009, this tactic might have only served to delay the process a month or two. The law has evolved somewhat since then and I can't imagine any attorney who values their credibility trying this now.)

State law entitled BOA to timely begin foreclosure proceedings on you after you were 90 days late with your mortgage. The fact that they didn't shows they were overwhelmed with defaults, incompetent or both. I know during that time they had departments set up to work with borrowers like yourself whose loans were resetting.

It sounds from your original post like you were gullible and believed "attorneys" and "mod sharks" (now out of biz) were going to magically make the terms of the note you signed with your lender disappear. You must know that ONLY YOUR LENDER can do that! The sad part is that you gave/sent them money that you should have used to cure the default.

10) Regarding your sellers, what compelled them to give you a land contract? If they own the property free and clear and are carrying your purchase money note themselves, why don't they just give you a grant deed and you execute a trust deed with an assignment of rents in their favor, like everyone else does? Did you ask them for a grant deed after they countered you with a land contract?

11) Do you realize that with a "land contract," that you are not actually taking title to the property until your loan with them is paid off? You are giving them $25K and payments every month on a 15-year amortization term. These are no doubt large payments. You are giving them your $$ and won't even take title to this property! This is only benefiting your seller. Granted, $25K is probably not enough downpayment to buy an SFR any other way. But you are not "buying" it in the true sense of the word. The deal you are proposing to do here is akin to "lease with an option to buy." Your "option" will not be exercised until your note is refinanced by you and/or paid off.

I can see your "sellers" wanting your $25K up front and a great monthly income from you, as well as a trust deed from you that they can foreclose on, if necessary. It is a win/win situation FOR THEM but not for you.

Given your stated good income and initial good FICO score, Crown, I just see all of this as completely preventable. At the point YOU decided to stop making payments, you could have instead worked with your lender to get rid of your likely "exploding" ARM and thereby saved your good credit.

I am not an attorney but this is the way I see your situation. I first became a RE licensee nearly 30 years ago and am a certified civil litigation paralegal with over 28 years experience.

SK or any Pigg attorney, please chime in if you have any other insight.

Submitted by bearishgurl on July 22, 2011 - 9:27am.

walterwhite wrote:
however many cabinets you have, you fill them up. That's why i think there should be a lot less cabinets. every family member should have one plate and one cup. perhaps and extra setting for a guest. silverware, ditto.

unfortunately, I have a lot of full cabinets. but i long for a minimalist cabinet lifestyle. in fact, eff it, i don't even need a cabinet. I think they didn't have cabinets in the olde days, they just had freestanding dish racks. one of those. we have too much, require too much to store it in and then when we get the boot, we have to take not only the stuff but the stuff to put the stuff in.

scaredy, I am in full agreement with you here :=}

I'm going to be giving away A LOT of stuff to charity early next month to slowly get ready for "downsizing." I think having "stuff" you use once a year (or less) is just ridiculous. Hit the road or get on a plane, instead :=]

Submitted by desmond on July 22, 2011 - 9:34am.

walterwhite wrote:
however many cabinets you have, you fill them up. That's why i think there should be a lot less cabinets. every family member should have one plate and one cup. perhaps and extra setting for a guest. silverware, ditto.

unfortunately, I have a lot of full cabinets. but i long for a minimalist cabinet lifestyle. in fact, eff it, i don't even need a cabinet. I think they didn't have cabinets in the olde days, they just had freestanding dish racks. one of those. we have too much, require too much to store it in and then when we get the boot, we have to take not only the stuff but the stuff to put the stuff in.

Then have Crown come over and tear your cabinets out.

Submitted by cvmom on July 22, 2011 - 9:41am.

Hooray for downsizing! Since we (family of 4) moved from 3100 to 1300 sq ft a year and a half ago, we have missed NONE of our "stuff". In fact, my (many fewer) cabinets are much more empty...and it's a lot easier to find the stuff we DO need. It is worth the effort to pare the possessions that somehow just seem to procreate like rabbits in the cabinets.

And another hooray for fiscal responsibility, which does not necessarily = conservatism. I am a liberal who believes in paying my own way and not buying things if you don't have the $ (not credit) to buy them. Including real estate.

Submitted by bearishgurl on July 22, 2011 - 10:26am.

cvmom wrote:
Hooray for downsizing! Since we (family of 4) moved from 3100 to 1300 sq ft a year and a half ago, we have missed NONE of our "stuff". In fact, my (many fewer) cabinets are much more empty...and it's a lot easier to find the stuff we DO need. It is worth the effort to pare the possessions that somehow just seem to procreate like rabbits in the cabinets.

And another hooray for fiscal responsibility, which does not necessarily = conservatism. I am a liberal who believes in paying my own way and not buying things if you don't have the $ (not credit) to buy them. Including real estate.

Good for YOU, cvmom! I am a liberal-turned-independent but am in agreement with your entire post :=]

Submitted by Broken Bells on July 22, 2011 - 10:58am.

Crown, unless you paid cash out of pocket (i.e. not a HELOC) for the granite and cabinets how are they yours to take?

Submitted by patb on July 28, 2011 - 6:33am.

do you have contact info for this guy?

also, do you know if he handles appliances?

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