San Diego Housing Market News and Analysis

OK guys, we've pretty much exhausted the pros and cons of protectionism and talked plenty about the past.
Here's my take on the future. The Obama administration and UAW now owns most of GM and Chrysler. Said companies cannot make profitable vehicles when pitted against foreign-owned companies producing in the non-unionized southern states.
Look for OM (ObamaMotors) to tilt the playing field for their union buddies by making American taxpayers subsidize Chrysler, OM, and probably soon Ford car sales by subsidizing them to give them a competitive advantage over non-unionized foreign-owned car makers. Exhibit one is the "cash for clunkers" bill currently whizzing through congress that will pay buyers getting into a slightly higher mileage new car than the one they are trading in, presumably to be junked? (talk about wasteful).
Exhibit Two is the Chevy Volt, the high-mileage, high priced ($39,000 or so), being developed that will only sell with the promised tax credits, state and federal (aka forced gift from taxpayers) amounting to many thousands of dollars per vehicle.
In short, the free trade era in which consumers had choices, foreign competitors forced product improvement in US vehicles, and foreign-owned US plants embarrassed GM, Ford, and Chrysler into facing their own problems is now over. Protectionism won out. Obama is our president and needs to repay his debt to the UAW.

Rt.66: Have you ever read one of the GM, Chrysler or Ford collective bargaining agreements? I'm not asking to be snide, I'm asking because I'm curious.

It was possible to go to work at a GM plant right out of high school (18 years old) and retire with a full pension and benefits (including an awesome health plan) at 48 years of age.

Now look at that from an actuarial standpoint. If, say, the average life expectancy is 68 years old for an American male (and I'm just using that number for simplicity), then GM is now carrying a partially burdened (meaning they're not paying a full salary, but continuing to pay pension and benefits) retiree for up to 20 years.

This is the scenario I meant when I talked about short-sighted thinking amongst the unions. The unions were fully aware of the "tail" that GM was carrying and that the tail was growing longer and, more importantly, "wider" (meaning there were not only issues with direct costs of maintaining it, but also unfunded pension liability issues), but chose to continue down what amounted to a blind alley and a dead end.

Again, not trying to demonize labor, but they were completely and KNOWINGLY complicit in this mess. And, this mess has nothing to do with foreign competition or unfair labor practices. This is a mess of labor's own creation and management's duplicity.

The Japanese Gov. funded a large part of Toyota's Prius development.

I'd say foreign Govs. Embarrassed the US Gov. by protecting, funding and nurturing their automakers to the point at which we find our manufacturers in the predicament we are in today.

People, you cannot disagree that our very own manufacturers have been put at a distinct disadvantage for decades. Everything else is just looking for a reason by looking past the reason.

No, GM's legacy costs are not evil. However, it seems to me that those high wages and benefits such as pensions and healthcare are part of the problem. GM is a reflection of the nation as a whole. The standard of living for US inhabitants have been far higher than most the world by a large degree. You can't expect that gap to continue indefinately.

The Asian countries played the one card that they had, cheap labor. You/we would have done the same. And, eventualy, the tables will turn. The low cost producer of today will become old, fat and slow. Some young energetic kid will come along and fill the void, maybe Africa (if they can ever stop fighting amongst themselves).

Let's not forget the US has its own protectionst trade tariffs and subsidies.

- 1930 Hawley-Smoot
- 1920 Jones Act
- Farm Subsidies (various)

Sugar anyone?

Many good points made on both sides here.

So what can we as Americans do on a personal level to pitch in to help our economy, the auto industry and the blue collar worker?

Most people know that the American auto of today is far superior to the bummer they got burned on in the 80's.

I say we need a popular spokesman to make the main stream media start taking the subject more seriously.

At the sake of sounding like a broken record, I say we encourage Jeff Bridges to renounce (for lack of a better word) his relationship with Hyundai and encourage folks to at least consider buying American again to do their part to dig us out of this hole.

A plea for a level playing field.

Before this Asian auto infiltration gets any more traction and becomes another Honda, Toyota, Nissan cluster-fluster.

It's the kind of patriotic movement that was so successful in WWI and WWII.

Hopefully the main stream media will run with the story.

It can be done with very little individual time at home on our PC's. It's focused and it's quite possibly doable without being labeled some kind of fringe movement. Just concerned citizens.

If anyone has a better idea I am all ears.

Nothing ventured. Nothing gained.

Make your voice heard at:

http://nicko62.websitetoolbox.com/post?i...

P.S. - I have no personal axe to grind with Jeff Bridges. As a matter of fact I have been a huge fan of his for years and it truly pains me to single him out.

It's just those darn commercials he does for Hyundai are so good - and so is he. It pains me every time I see one on the television machine.

All I can think is what good he could be doing for the home team if he switched sides.

Wouldn't it be great if Jeff Bridges were the spokesperson for the Big Three American auto makers ?

Hey paddy, do you get paid per visit? Just asking...
Time to make this interesting:

Which is Greener: the Prius or the Hummer?

http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/2007...

Silent Carbon Footprint: Top Ten Sources You’d Never Expect

http://www.greenexpander.com/2008/12/15/...

This is an interesting diagram floating around.... Now, I think the 2010 Camaro is good product from GM. But one thing that I found was interesting was this diagram circulating around about it's diversity.

Camaro Assembly Factory:: Ontario, Canada (confirm with all Camaros currently have vins beginning with "2")

Also, interesting

*American Suppliers

PPG
Detroit Technologies
Continental Structural Plastics
Valor Manufacturing
ADAC Automotive
American Axle
Leggett and Platt Automotive
Stant
TK Holdings
Laird
Gentex
Checker Motors
jiffy-tite
Dana
federal-mogul
schrader-bridgeport
cooper-standard
ArvinMeritor

*Foreign Suppliers

BASF (Germany)
ABC Group (Canada)
Norma Group (Germany)
Kuester Automotive (Germany)
Hella (Germany)
Delfingen (FRA)
Brembo (Ita)
Faurecia (FRA)
INA (Europe somewhere)
Rotorion (Germany)
Wagon Automative (FRA)
Autoliv (Sweden)
hirshvogel umformtechnik (definitely german)
scharader electronics (Ireland)
Henkel (Germany)
Martinea(Canada)
Pilkington (UK)
Inalfa Roof Systems (Netherlands)
Panasonic (Japan)
Omron (Japan)
Tesa
Yazaki (Japan)
GBIE (CAN)
Hoerbiger Drivetrain (europe?)
Narmco (CAN)
Wescast (CAN)
Mitsubishi Electric (JAPAN)
Koyo (JAPAN)
Stackpole (CAN)
ElringKlinger (europe)
Vibracoustic (GBH)

Not a slam on the Camaro..Also the drivetrain components arent detailed so there's definitely stuff not mentioned in this diagram...Nevertheless, this is probably how GM should have been building cars all along...mixing and matching the best parts for the best prices...But the diversity is pretty interesting.

If you really want to walk the walk about buying american it not just about buying from GM/Ford/Chrysler, but you probably you probably (1) should check the vin to see where the assembly took place and (2) check the total parts content of the vehicle % domestically sourced for the specific make and model. This is usually found on the window sticker. VINS that begin with 1 (and 4) are domestically assembled, 4 typically being a foreign auto maker producing a car domestically in U.S.

If Jeff Bridges is running around renouncing things, I think he should renounce his role in "Against All Odds". That movie was terrible!

That was a good post flu

Thanks :)

Apparently it would cost about a billion $ to launch a new brand. Hence the smart decision was not to...

I just read those links and that was fun. Lots of wild claims there. The MPG for the Hummer is understated at 8mpg and the Prius (from real world drivers I've spoken with) is over-stated at 45 mpg. Also they don't touch on the fact that on top of the batteries the Prius also has an electric motor (as well as gas engine) that must be manufactured. Not giving an oppinion or putting much thought into the validity of that story here, though.

I thought this was an interesting statement:

Scott--
A Prius costs well over $30K to produce. Toyota sells them at a big loss, to build market share, establish their technology as the standard, and garner CAFE credits.
----------

Go up and read EconProf post and you will get a sense of how many Americans view American companies that get that kind of competitive aid.

Japanese automakers would never have gotten off the ground if not for the nearly complete prevention of foriegn choices to the Japanese people. In Fledgling automotive era Japan, tariffs on US cars were outragious. Japanese automakers are receiving Gov. bailouts today because of the depression. Japanese Gov. funds research and provides funds to make their manufacturers more competitive.

All this is OK to Americans. But give GM or any US company some help and its morally repulsive. Any Gov. bailout is immediate cause for death of a US company. Does that makes sense?

So the logic is.......When a foriegn Gov. gives susbsidies and bailouts and unfair trade advantages to its manufacturers then it's no foul and A-Ok to support those foriegn manufacturers.

However....If GM needs/gets the same then they swear to never buy from them or support or say a truthful word about them, EVER!

$19,983 - GDP per capital of ROK estimated by World Bank in 2007
Here's the wiki I got the info from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

ROK Hyundai doesn't pay $5 a day to build cars. Are you kidding? Just in case you didn't know, Hyundai doesn't build cars in little shacks in ROK. They have factories all over the world. Hyundai/Kia is ranked 5 or 6 worldwide in # of cars they sold recently. I think Hyundai outsold Nissan last year.
AND Hyundai Motor has pretty aggressive unions. It's infamous. They stage strike almost every year.

One thing Hyundai Motor doesn't have to worry about is paying for health care of workers/retirees because it's paid for by govt. That's right, ROK govt offers universal healthcare for all citizens AND people of Korean ancestry who are citizens of other country. You pay a monthly fee (adjusted for your income level) to enroll and you are covered.

I'm confused why you are picking on Hyundai/ROK. Is it because the actor is promoting Hyundai? Where's China in your grumbling? Do you know how unfair China's trade policy is? Like allowing only 10 premiers per year of movies from USA? And how unbalanced the trade is between China and USA?

A little history lesson.
Here's how ROK's GDP per capita moved in 57 years.
$976 - 1950
$19,983 - 2007

I got $976 from http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gd...

If you really want to level complaint at someone/nation publicly, you should know more about it a bit more...

Final comment.
I will tell you what's really wrong with US. It's the lack of focus on education. The only reason ROK went from GDP per capita of $976 in the 1950's to $19,983 of 2007 is because of education. ROK's education isn't without its faults of course. How much focus are we putting on educating our kids?

dbapig, I stand corrected, that was a WAG, hence the "or whatever" in my statement. I guess they are actually quite well payed and unionized, I was way off.

"I'm confused why you are picking on Hyundai/ROK. Is it because the actor is promoting Hyundai?"

Yes I think thats exactly the point of the thread maker.

Personally I'm not picking on any country or manufacturer specifically, just trying to make a case for supporting our own manufacturers.

PS: I agree 100% that we need better education in this country. Sad that we are actually getting the opposite right now as education funding is taking it in the rear.

--------------

More Hummer fun:

Hummer H3 Plugin Hybrid Gets 100 MPG, Kicks Prius Butt!
http://gas2.org/2009/04/21/hummer-h3-plu...

One observation. In case you didn't know Japan occupied Korea for about 30 years until 1945. And it was very brutal occupation. People forced to change last names to Japanese sounding ones. Comfort Women. Korean Christians/pastors beaten to death for refusing to bow down at Shintoism ceremony. So older Koreans have no great love for Japan. Younger Koreans are less so but still it's there. HOWEVER, if you go to Korea Town in LA, you will see far more Japanese brand cars than US or even Korean ones. Do you know why? They buy one that's of good quality, lasts long but costs reasonably.

Instead of saying 'let's support US industries', we should be 'demanding good quality products at reasonable price' that's 'competitive'. It's about competition. One may say well US car makers can't compete because their union members make too much? Well than that will have to be changed.

I have a college degree but because I don't work for govt nor GM, I won't be getting pension after I retire. Meanwhile auto workers graduated from high school and start working at car factory right away and end up with pension. I'm sure working on factory floor has its difficulties and all BUT it doesn't make sense. That's unsustainable. We can't sustain what's unsustainable.

One thing I noticed from looking into Korean autoworker wages is that Koreans protect and fight for these jobs like angry badgers. Man they'll strike and shut a town down if a sneeze comes out sounding like "layoffs".

Another example of a country that recognizes the importance and worth of good jobs and fights for them.

While we continue to debate whether or not it’s a good idea to cheer for the LOSS of the same jobs.

Funny.

Few explanations.

Union at Hyundai Motors is particularly combative. Not sure why but they are very aggressive. Many S Koreans don't like them (union members) too much i think.

A sister company across town, Hyundai Heavy Industries (HHI), has a much more reasonable union. HHI is a huge ship builder. Union at HHI used to be aggressive and had huge street battles (really battles) and all. But the management learned to work with them and their union is much less combative. In fact the union volunteered few months ago not to interfere if the management decides to cut wages etc in the difficult time. It helps that HHI has enough orders to keep them busy for next 3 years but still.

Many jobs left ROK and went to other cheaper areas like China etc.

IMO, one thing that's hindering US from acting swiftly is the US Treasury's printing press. ROK don't own printing press that can print $$.

US has Plan B, the printing press, although that might change if China has its way. But not ROK.

2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid Side-by-Side Comparison
Starting MSRP $27,270

http://www.cars.com/go/crp/research.jsp?...
The 41-mpg Ford Fusion Hybrid,
it may be a really good car but ive been screwed by american car companys especally gm i want a car that will last, with a little tlc

How about a VW Jetta TDI? MSRP $24,070, Invoice $22,803... and 41Mpg (29 city). Automatic 6 speed trans... I have heard rumblings that VW is going to make a hybrid of this too..
Ford has to keep a better eye out on the competition and pricing. Pricing would be better on the VW is not for the dollar/Euro exchange rate - (Its gotten better for the dollar but still a little behind from same time last year)

In case it got lost in previous comments,

-----------
did I mention ROK offers UNIVERSAL healthcare for its citizens?
-----------

Did Jeff Bridges Hyundai Ads Contribute to The Big 3 Meltdown ?

Why such apathy concerning the demise of the iconic American Auto Industry and the blue collar workers ?

Do most Americans think it's wrong for an auto worker to make a decent living with health care and retirement ?

I must be a dinosaur because I just don't get it.

http://nicko62.websitetoolbox.com/post?i...

I think this will not help Jeff's career, who would want to be allied with a foriegn maker while hundreds of thousands of Americans have been/are losing their jobs?

Apathy towards those jobs? I'd call it misguided, ignorant hostility.

Do most Americans think it's wrong for an auto worker to make a decent living with health care and retirement ?

Not me! I think we should ban together as workers and defend other workers. UAW, IT guys, whatever, yes we should all want them to have a good living.

Most in this country think they can call for the other guy to get fired and cheer the loss of "his" job and somehow believe the forces of collapse will stop at "thier" job.

How about we all make a pact. Lets agree to buy American cars. And to appease the anti-American car folks lets just say we accept that we may have to go to the dealership for a warranty repair one, two, heck maybe three more times than if we bought a Honda.

Would that appease the Honda/Hyundia/Toyota/etc lovers? You can say, "US cars are a bit less reliable" than Asian cars and we won't fight you anymore. BUT, and this is a big BUT.... we need to make this tiny sacrifice (buying US cars) to help ourselves get back on our feet (let's not hold out hope waiting for TPTB to help us).

If you do, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. You might just find that driving a US made car gives you a sense of pride in your country you may not have felt for a while. You may also find that, just like a Honda, your shiny new example of helping your fellow US worker, starts everyday and gets you to and from work, holidays etc. safely and reliably. You may be shocked to find the odometer roll past 130k miles and realize you have never needed to visit the dealership for repairs.

I followed your link and got this:

"Your login information has expired. Please login or logout below."

Then it asked me to downolad a Java apple or something so, no-go.

Besides, Im not up to battling the forces of ignorance in another forum; its exausting and depressing enough with the forums I do participate in.

For the record, Jeff Bridges is one of my favorite actors..

This guy has had as charmed a life as this great country can offer:

Incredibly good looking.

Talented.

Rich.

Famous.

If I were him the very first time this topic came to my attention I would have quit doing Hyundai commercials, issued a press release saying:

"Although Hyundia is a fine company, making fine cars, I feel it inappropriate to be selling their cars while so many American auto workers are losing their livelyhood"

I would then pick up the phone and let Chrysler know I am willing to do commercials FREE.

This is a no-brainer. If he were a two-bit actor who needed the money it would be one thing, but Jeff Bridges? Come on!

I have a college degree but because I don't work for govt nor GM, I won't be getting pension after I retire. Meanwhile auto workers graduated from high school and start working at car factory right away and end up with pension. I'm sure working on factory floor has its difficulties and all BUT it doesn't make sense. That's unsustainable. We can't sustain what's unsustainable.

Wow what an amazing example of the way we think here in the US. Note that pensions are common across Western Europe (and used to be here too!), where lots of good cars and other products come from. However here in the US they are considered "unsustainable" relics of a bygone era. Rather than thinking -- "Hey why don't we all have a pension like the autoworkers? We should organize and hassle our politicians to make that happen!" we instead think "those darned overpaid spoiled autoworkers! They should be totally f***ed like the rest of us and have to work until they drop!"

And most people here think this way. Go ahead and call me crazy for thinking otherwise, I'm used to it.

http://gmretardation.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFV1vQwMlpU

In a presentation GM provided to some congressional offices, the automaker said it plans to import 17,335 vehicles from China to the U.S. in 2011 and 38,351 in 2012. The number of imported vehicles from China is expected to grow to 53,302 in 2013 and 51,546 in 2014.

So when people are flipping through the movie listings, they're gonna see Jeff Bridges and say, "oh isn't that the guy in the Hyundai commercials? Lets skip his movie."

Riiiiigggghhhht.

Yah Me too. I mean Jeff Bridges is like a god to me and I think that he can save the car industry. All the automobile companies need is Jeff Bridges to take a stand. The previous mismanagement, ridiculous accumulation of debt, inflated wages and bonuses ( at all levels ), low quality product and design are irrelevant. Bring in Jeff Bridges. Maybe Beau might come in and they can team up to really fix the company.

Attorneys file objections to General Motors asset sale

As Yogi Berra once said, "This is like deja-vu all over again." Yesterday was the deadline for parties to file objections to the General Motors asset sale, and several were indeed filed. If some of this sounds familiar, it's because similar objections were filed during Chrysler's bankruptcy proceedings.

For instance, on Friday, attorneys general from 10 states jointly-filed an objection, saying that the so-called New GM's "purchase of substantially all of the operating assets of the debtors should not include an impenetrable shield which insulates (the new GM) from all future product liability claims."

The AGs are upset because under the current plans, New GM basically won't be held responsible for existing or future product liability claims related to vehicles sold before the formation of the new company. This echoes similar objections raised during the Chrysler proceedings, and if you use that as a measuring stick, things don't look good for the AGs or the injured parties (present or future) on whose behalf they're raising the objections.

When the Supreme Court cleared the way for Chrysler's sale to Fiat, similar claims filed by consumer groups were essentially denied. Fiat-owned "New Chrysler" is not responsible for prior liability claims, leaving injured parties with little to no recourse.

afx114 & pedrocon thanks for the thought provoking drive-by. How long did it take you to think up those excellently delivered posts?

After reading this thread you somehow came to the conclusion that we believe Jeff Bridges won't get eyeballs on his movies anymore or that he can save the auto industry? Really??
------------------

gmretardation

Nice name. I went to your blog. You've got it wrong; the American tax payer totally screwed over THEMSELVES.

Look, Toyota would not be here today (at least as we know it) if it were not for Gov. Subsidies and protection over the decades. So, can we agree most automakers across the globe have gotten help and today especially are looking for Gov. help. So...all car companies are screwing their host country's tax payer, by your logic.

Difference is, in other countries they help the automakers to KEEP jobs. Here we give them money to enter an orderly BK and then chop them up and send jobs over-seas.

Hyundai driver across THIS nation stare longingly out their windows at their Elantras as they type emails to their representatives demanding "No bailouts to the auto-industry". In Japan and Korea they DEMAND their Gov. provide and protect these good jobs.

You have not seen "screwing the tax payer" YET. Wait until the numbers come out on how much it will cost us to pay for hundreds of thousands thrown onto unemployment and the lost pensions and healthcare benefits. And don't forget the lessons people have wasted time trying to get across on this very thread.....which is that the job losses don’t stop with GM!!!! Thousands and thousands of people have and will lose their employment in seemingly unconnected jobs across the nation.

This is a global job war. Other countries like Japan will bail-out their auto industry and come out of this with more jobs. We will come out of it with massively FEWER good jobs. Both countries will have a bailout debt load; one will have an economic engine to pay it off.

GM has SERVED this country for 100 years. So many will only realize what they had... when it’s gone.

GM is reacting to a hostile populace. I followed your link: "Auto Shops Worried We'll Start Buying Cars That Don't Suck"

Reading the angry and delusional posts made by Americans about THEIR OWN industry is so very odd to me.

So many Americans are screaming for GMs death. The ones smart enough to connect a few dots then blame GM for the results of dying; which is sending jobs and car production to other countries as this once great company riles in the death throws YOU people wished upon it.

You can't have one without the other, if you want GM to die at least have foresight of a 12 year old and put some thought into what will happen as it does die.

GMs death will wreak far reaching havoc and will cost tax payers, workers, retirees and the nation as a whole, greatly, for a long, long time to come. And when the dust settles we will have BOTH bailout debt and far fewer good jobs. You American auto haters will have won and we all will pay a great price for your victory.

Rt.66: GM was following an unsustainable business model. Wagoner, the CEO who was ousted by Obama, has repeatedly said as much and one of his primary areas of focus was to try and work with UAW and AFL-CIO on renegotiating the CBA, specifically the health benefits section.

The pension/healthcare liability tail that GM was carrying was massive and resulted in those significant legacy costs that you referenced.

However, how can you be willing to recognize those legacy costs and yet not be willing to admit that they were part of an almost suicidal bargaining approach by UAW and AFL-CIO? I've heard you and PaddyOh talk about a "reasonable" wage for auto workers. They weren't paid a reasonable wage, though. When you calculate salary AND benefits, they were being paid far in excess of "reasonable" and this has been going on since the 1950s, when GM initially folded under union pressure (and pressure from the government). GM could afford those wages in the 1950s, when GM had nearly 60% US market share and no foreign competition to speak of. Unfortunately, time and competition caught up and GM's domestic market share has eroded to about 28%. To accuse those tens of thousands of Americans of somehow being traitors for buying a foreign car is not only false, it ignores the fact that GM lost those customers by failing to deliver on it's central premise for existence: Well designed, well made and affordable cars that people would WANT to drive.

You're almost Stalinist in your demands that we drive American or face the consequences of our misguided actions. This is a free, capitalist society (or at least it used to be) and companies live or die based on their ability to deliver attractive choices to consumers. Simple as that. Great design + great engineering + great construction = WINNAR (sorry, FLU, couldn't resist). Think iPod.

GM has the design and engineering chops to deliver great products, especially with Bob Lutz on board. However, it has become hidebound, bureaucratic and too slow to keep up with the times.

To ascribe GM's fall to these nefarious foreigners misses the larger picture and glosses over many of the salient facts in the story. GM could have easily crushed Honda, Toyota, et al in their infancy. It didn't because, in it's arrogance, it failed to take them seriously and didn't deign to compete with cheap "Made in Japan" econoboxes. Then OPEC and the "oil shocks" hit and the game changed and GM was caught completely flat footed. AGAIN, it could have used it's economies of scale and residual consumer loyalty to put it's now growing Japanese competitors out of business by designing smaller, more fuel efficient and better designed cars. It didn't, choosing instead to keep manufacturing large, fuel-inefficient clunkers. You opined once that the 1970s weren't an automotive glory period for any car maker. That conveniently ignores the fact that GM, Ford and Mopar designed some of the best looking, best produced cars in the world in the 1950s and 1960s. By the 1970s, they had gotten fat, lazy and prideful and their Japanese competitors saw and exploited that opening.

The rest, as they say, is history. And now so is GM. Welcome to capitalism.

The parallels between GM and the State of California's union negotiations is scary.

The parallels between GM's legacy costs from the defined benefits and Social Security are equally scary.

Rt.66: GM was following an unsustainable business model. Wagoner, the CEO who was ousted by Obama, has repeatedly said as much and one of his primary areas of focus was to try and work with UAW and AFL-CIO on renegotiating the CBA, specifically the health benefits section.

Unsustainable in a climate of dwindling (to Asia) market share maybe. If the American public appreciated a 100 year old symbol of US greatness and supported US workers and GM products they could provide good jobs and benefits and pensions as long as the support was there.

The pension/healthcare liability tail that GM was carrying was massive and resulted in those significant legacy costs that you referenced.

Been over this, yes we had those costs, yes the US Gov. failed to prevent predatory trade partners from turning a good thing (good jobs, benefits, pension) into a weakness.

However, how can you be willing to recognize those legacy costs and yet not be willing to admit that they were part of an almost suicidal bargaining approach by UAW and AFL-CIO? I've heard you and PaddyOh talk about a "reasonable" wage for auto workers. They weren't paid a reasonable wage, though. When you calculate salary AND benefits, they were being paid far in excess of "reasonable".

Those $70 an hour MSM BS numbers you hear include legacy costs. They add up the cost of the current workers, their benefits PLUS the costs of retired workers collecting benefits then divide it by the total number of current workers. Is that how you figure your pay? Do you add your company’s pension and retiree healthcare costs into your salary? Of course not, but its good PR to get the UAW hate machine revved up.

and this has been going on since the 1950s, when GM initially folded under union pressure (and pressure from the government). GM could afford those wages in the 1950s, when GM had nearly 60% US market share and no foreign competition to speak of. Unfortunately, time and competition caught up and GM's domestic market share has eroded to about 28%.

GM lost market share and had an increasingly hard time supporting good American jobs, benefits and pensions, on this we agree.

To accuse those tens of thousands of Americans of somehow being traitors for buying a foreign car is not only false,

False huh? If they had bought GM products instead of Hyundai, Toyota, Honda, Mazda, Nissan, Kia, Subaru by the millions then we would not be having this debate.

it ignores the fact that GM lost those customers by failing to deliver on it's central premise for existence: Well designed, well made and affordable cars that people would WANT to drive.

BS, GM builds a great car. It’s the biggest lie ever perpetrated on the working class of America that those dumb beliefs about poor quality proliferate.

When was the last time you drove ANYWHERE and witnessed American cars broken down on the road side? If you are honest you will agree that seeing any car broken down on the side of the road is really, really rare and when you do its just as likely to be a BMW, Toyota, Nissan as any US make.

ALL cars sold in the US are CRAZY reliable, that’s the truth, love it or hate it. If a car these days does need repair it usually never involves a tow truck. It’s usually a squeak, an electrical issue, malfunctioning accessory, etc. , but nothing that prevents you from getting to work. Does anyone really believe Toyota repair shops are empty? So we chant for the death of our industry based on what? Internet BS statements that GM sucks, which are completely contrary to what our EVERYDAY eyes and lives tell us?

So, be honest, if you chose an Asian car this is reality, not the outrageous statements you read from those with deep seeded guilt issues over sending $20,000 or $40,000 to Japan or Korea, to support Japanese and Korean schools, roads, libraries, social services, etc. (and contributing to job losses in their own country).

You're almost Stalinist in your demands that we drive American or face the consequences of our misguided actions. This is a free, capitalist society (or at least it used to be) and companies live or die based on their ability to deliver attractive choices to consumers. Simple as that. Great design + great engineering + great construction = WINNAR (sorry, FLU, couldn't resist). Think iPod.

You are correct, we are free to choose to send our money and jobs overseas and our Government will help us do so. It’s also correct that if you live in our trading partner’s countries the Gov. does not assume you can make such a decision and restricts imports. They get surpluses and jobs; we get deficits, unemployment and freedom of choice. You decide who has a better system. Usually ones oppinion to this is directly related to the proximity of potential job loss to THEMSELVES.

GM has the design and engineering chops to deliver great products, especially with Bob Lutz on board. However, it has become hidebound, bureaucratic and too slow to keep up with the times.

Patently false. I drive a Buick and a Dodge. I often end up driving a friend or family member vehicle when they need to use my supper reliable, quite, solid, powerful Dodge truck to move, haul stuff or tow stuff. I drive Honda’s and Volkswagens and Nissans. I rent cars just like everyone else and sometimes get an Asian car. So, I know what is out there and I know that Asian cars have their strengths and weakness just like US vehicles.

Let’s fast forward 20 years. How many Asian cars will you see at the Good Guys car show at Del Mar?
Zero, of course, just like today.

How many of today’s American cars will people keep for generations and still have pride in 20 years? Short list off the top of my head:

The new Camero
The new Challenger
Dodge Charger R/T
The new Vette
Many Cadillacs
Dodge Hemmi trucks
Crew cab diesel 4x4s
Saturn Sky

To ascribe GM's fall to these nefarious foreigners misses the larger picture and glosses over many of the salient facts in the story. GM could have easily crushed Honda, Toyota, et al in their infancy. It didn't because, in it's arrogance, it failed to take them seriously and didn't deign to compete with cheap "Made in Japan" econoboxes. Then OPEC and the "oil shocks" hit and the game changed and GM was caught completely flat footed. AGAIN, it could have used it's economies of scale and residual consumer loyalty to put it's now growing Japanese competitors out of business by designing smaller, more fuel efficient and better designed cars. It didn't, choosing instead to keep manufacturing large, fuel-inefficient clunkers. You opined once that the 1970s weren't an automotive glory period for any car maker. That conveniently ignores the fact that GM, Ford and Mopar designed some of the best looking, best produced cars in the world in the 1950s and 1960s. By the 1970s, they had gotten fat, lazy and prideful and their Japanese competitors saw and exploited that opening.
The rest, as they say, is history. And now so is GM. Welcome to capitalism.

Wrong again. US policies, US policies. After the war our Gov. wanted to rebuild Japan and wanted them to succeed and made sure they did. We made the Japanese auto industry. We built their factories, gave them our assembly technology, sent then knock-down kits to get them started and then allowed then to completely eliminate foreign car makers from the Japanese markets for decades while they built what they have today. American car buyers don’t seem to hold that against Honda, but heaven forbid we help our manufacturers in such a way. So, its not that GM was dumb and Toyota was smart so much as Gov. policies protected and encourage Toyota and discourage GMs success.

Welcome to Government policies that have/will cost us hundreds of thousands of jobs directly connected to the auto industry and many, many more that most people will never connect.