San Diego Housing Bubble News and Analysis

Howie Long is the man!

Go Chevy!

Come on now. Even KKK/aryan types drive an Made in USA Hyundai these days.... Get with the times...

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=25&sid=1693510

Federal authorities says they are convinced that von Brunn was responsible for the slaying of the 39-year-old Johns.

Irony defined.

BTW: Conveniently inaccurate for purposes of your argument...Try again.

Welcome to Alabama 2009

http://www.hmmausa.com/

"HYUNDAI MOTOR MANUFACTURING ALABAMA, LLC
Welcome to Hyundai Motor Manufacturing Alabama, LLC (HMMA), Hyundai's first assembly and manufacturing plant in the United States. This $1.4 billion automotive plant is one of the most advanced assembly plants in North America.

HMMA currently provides employment for more than 2,700 people who are building Hyundai's 2009 Sonata sedan and 2009 Santa Fe sport utility vehicle (SUV) at the Hyundai Alabama plant."

back of envelope calculations
seoul, south kr -> long beach, ca = 6000 miles
inland barge offers 514 ton-miles / gallon of fuel (http://www.arc.gov/index.do?nodeId=2571)

hyundai elantra curb weight = 2522 lbs = 1.25 tons

assuming a panamax or cape sized cargo ship gets roughly same eff as a barge (??), then it required 14.6 gallons of fuel to ship an elantra here. If a cargo ship is 25% as efficient as a barge, then it only cost 60 gallons of fuel to get it to long beach.

2700 jobs huh? Big deal, we’ve been losing that many jobs in US factories every few months for 10 years and now we lose that many every week (or is it everyday?). SO foreign companies throw us a little bone, give us a few jobs and its cool to send our money to their country and to buy all those Hyundais still built in Korea.

It’s hard to get exact figures but from what I can tell from various Hyundai press releases they sell somewhere around 500,000 cars here and they only have capacity to build 100,000 in the USA (from mostly Korean parts). So whoopee! 400,000 of those cars that you good American consumers buy are still built in Korea.

And 100% of the profit from all 500,000 go to improving Korea's economy.

deleted... (no point feeding a troll).

OHHH PULLLEASE. :::eye roll::

If American automakers could built great cars with solid warranties like the Asian companies then perhaps they would not be in the mess they are in. Hell, GM has been the most clueless company in the world for 30 years.

Welcome to international economics. 99% of consumer electronics designed in the USA are exported for manufacturing. It's an old argument of basic economics. You can bitch all ya want but nothing is going to change. Get over it.

I have two Elantras sitting in front of my house right now. Bought them for my sons. Great cars and awesome warranties. And what actors do has NO bearing on how I see the world or run my life.

ox

Said the guy with TWO Hyundais in his driveway.

Talk about Eye roll, jeez.

American cars are good cars, its just hard for you to see it because the Hyundais are blocking your view.
-----

Whats wrong FLU don't want to get your ass handed to you again. You don't have a leg to stand on so its easy to debunk your lame statements. Your the Troll, always making lame inflamatory statements with no thinking behind them.

You're never going to win a:

"America sucks and here's why" or an "American cars suck"

arguement because it's a lie.

nope rt66, I have better things to do than argue with you.

You're assuming I think American/America sucks. I think this is a great country, because of freedom of choice. I just don't like jerks/bitches like you who like to support a fascist government in which every decision americans make is dictated from one viewpoint. In fact, if at all, to some extent, I think you have the direct opposite affect, in that you are fitting into every stereotype of what people think about unions like UAW, regardless if they are true or not. So frankly, you're not helping your cause imho.

Like I said, you were here pronouncing how smart you are with RE. Now you're pronouncing how smart you are with the economy. And on a thread in which someone was trying to ask for IT jobs, you went on a tirade about saving american jobs, and how you were going to write to a senator (Did you finish that, or like always, were just just full of shit)? What did you offer to help your fellow american? What do you actually do/have done? Are you really in a position to help others? Did you do anything useful with your life to be able to help? Do you provide jobs for people? Do you volunteer at food banks? Do you donate to the poor in any meaningful way? Do you look for job leads, are you collecting contacts for yourself and for others? Or are you one of those people that just sit in the corner on your ass and incite people? Don't answer that, I know.

I'm done responding.

Im personally hoping the Genesis is the next Lexus. Its a good looking ride with all the common luxuries of every other car.

Two last points - I think they messed up by not introducing a totally seperate line/division like nissan, honda and toyota did.

I dont own a one but if I needed a lease I would be all over those for two years to test is out.

And that Hyundai plant was subsidized by taxpayer's money (corporate welfare for the Koreans now) and pays some of the lowest wages in the industry.

When and where do we draw the line ? When we have no industry left in the USA ?

I'm all for free enterprise but do we have to hand over all manufacturing to our world competitors on a silver platter ? Where's the outrage ?

Taken From the Associated Press 01/31/09:

"In an interview with The New York Times, Bruce Springsteen says he shouldn't have made a deal with Wal-Mart. This month, the store started exclusively selling a Springsteen greatest-hits CD."
"Some fans were critical because Springsteen has been a longtime supporter of worker's rights, and Wal-Mart has faced criticism for its labor practices. Springsteen's team didn't vet the issue as closely as it should have, and that he "dropped the ball on it," he told the Times.........".

Springsteen went on to say: "It was a mistake. Our batting average is usually very good, but we missed that one. Fans will call you on that stuff, as it should be."

Jeff Bridges should take a cue from Springsteen and junk the Hyundai ( HIE-YUN-DIE ) gig.

http://nicko62.websitetoolbox.com/post?i...

Hyundai has a great value ,for the money. in 2000 i liked the Hyundai warranty(nobody came close). i didn't trust Hyundai because of the bad rep,but after my dealings with a American car dealership i said screw it .

that 100mile warranty on the engine and drivetrain sold me.
well my 2000 Hyundai elantra had over (240000) Jan 2009 before it died in my drive way this car took a real beating from my driving habits and my dogs.

i bought a new Hyundai elantra in 2007. because i really thought how much longer can this car go and my girlfriend was really pushing me to get a new car. She was worried about how the car looked. i really didn't care if the clearcoat on the car was flaking off or how worn the fabric was.
so i would say to anybody wanting a new car get a
Hyundai it has great value.for your hard earned dollars. i will tell you this it took, 10 years for Hyundai to lose its bad rep and poor quality.

now they made Genesis which consumer reports ranked # 1 i think in 2008.
they are the American dream to go from making a piece of junk that nobody wanted, to the car that makes you think (THATS A Hyundai)

oh this is the best part my girlfriend knows people at the Hyundai dealership so i got a good deal, and remember she pushed me into getting a new Hyundai.
Its funny, she works for a ford dealership.

Quote:

BTW: Conveniently inaccurate
Submitted by flu on June 13, 2009 - 11:59am.

Welcome to Alabama 2009

"HYUNDAI MOTOR MANUFACTURING ALABAMA, LLC
Welcome to Hyundai Motor Manufacturing Alabama, LLC (HMMA), Hyundai's first assembly and manufacturing plant in the United States........

And that Hyundai plant was subsidized by taxpayer's money (corporate welfare for the Koreans now) and pays some of the lowest wages in the industry.

When and where do we draw the line ? When we have no industry left in the USA ?

I'm all for free enterprise but do we have to hand over all manufacturing to our world competitors on a silver platter ? Where's the outrage ?

Taken From the Associated Press 01/31/09:

"In an interview with The New York Times, Bruce Springsteen says he shouldn't have made a deal with Wal-Mart. This month, the store started exclusively selling a Springsteen greatest-hits CD."
"Some fans were critical because Springsteen has been a longtime supporter of worker's rights, and Wal-Mart has faced criticism for its labor practices. Springsteen's team didn't vet the issue as closely as it should have, and that he "dropped the ball on it," he told the Times.........".

Springsteen went on to say: "It was a mistake. Our batting average is usually very good, but we missed that one. Fans will call you on that stuff, as it should be."

Jeff Bridges should take a cue from Springsteen and junk the Hyundai ( HIE-YUN-DIE ) gig.

http://nicko62.websitetoolbox.com/post?i...

Quote:

BTW: Conveniently inaccurate
Submitted by flu on June 13, 2009 - 11:59am.

Welcome to Alabama 2009

"HYUNDAI MOTOR MANUFACTURING ALABAMA, LLC
Welcome to Hyundai Motor Manufacturing Alabama, LLC (HMMA), Hyundai's first assembly and manufacturing plant in the United States........

And that Hyundai plant was subsidized by taxpayer's money (corporate welfare for the Koreans now) and pays some of the lowest wages in the industry.

When and where do we draw the line ? When we have no industry left in the USA ?

I'm all for free enterprise but do we have to hand over all manufacturing to our world competitors on a silver platter ? Where's the outrage ?

Taken From the Associated Press 01/31/09:

"In an interview with The New York Times, Bruce Springsteen says he shouldn't have made a deal with Wal-Mart. This month, the store started exclusively selling a Springsteen greatest-hits CD."
"Some fans were critical because Springsteen has been a longtime supporter of worker's rights, and Wal-Mart has faced criticism for its labor practices. Springsteen's team didn't vet the issue as closely as it should have, and that he "dropped the ball on it," he told the Times.........".

Springsteen went on to say: "It was a mistake. Our batting average is usually very good, but we missed that one. Fans will call you on that stuff, as it should be."

Jeff Bridges should take a cue from Springsteen and junk the Hyundai ( HIE-YUN-DIE ) gig.

http://nicko62.websitetoolbox.com/post?i...

/sarcasm

Yay protectionism!

/sarcasm off

Multipied by let's say...um...20,000 hyundais ?

( HIE-YUN-DIES )

Well....you figure it out on your envelope.

Point is, our economy is tanking, iconic US Automakers are left begging for handouts and most importantly, American blue collar workers are losing jobs by the thousands every day.

Can we at least take a break from supporting the Asian economy until our own economy is fixed ? Is even that too much to ask of Americans at this point in our history ?

Ross Perot was right. That giant sucking sound of NAFTA is getting louder and louder - but so many Americans seem to be covering their ears.

Ask Jeff Bridges to take a break from the Hyundai voice-overs.

http://nicko62.websitetoolbox.com/post?i...

OK. let's stop buying Hyundai. But why stop there?
then I'm going to stop buying any electronics. They ship them from China you know. No cell phone, TV, radio, MP3 player, microwave, fridge. this computer I'm typing on is, Oh Snap, made in Japan.
I'm gonna pretty much walk around naked b/c most clothing are made outside this country.
Won't be filling up my gas tank anymore. Can't be supporting those terrorists in the Middle East.
gotta go burn the rest of my belongings. Can't be known as unpatriotic.
I'm gonna walk around (no clothing, no gas) barefoot naked and live in the 18th century (electronics) but hey, I'll be patriotic!

Paddyoh, you should really join the buy/support America movement by following the above example.

would you rather buy a Chevy made in Mehico or a Honda made in America?
multiply that by your 20,000

OK lets set things straight on sanctions and trade. Anytime you bring this up people jump to the far side of the argument and say stuff like ”protectionism only makes matters worse”, etc.

Like any issue there is a logical way to go about it and there is hyperbole. Yes, too much protectionism is bad, but…..would you agree that too little is bad as well? Protectionism as in “protecting your jobs”.

It’s about FAIR trade. We have been giving our jobs to counties that practice outright protectionism for decades. Why? Japan has ALWAYS carefully balanced its trade to “protect” its manufacturing base. Japan has been one of the richest countries in the world with good jobs, low unemployment and high wages all without even the tiniest natural resource.

How do they do it? They keep trade fair (or rather, tilted to be way more fair for Japan and its workers). Why can’t we do that?

Not practicing an aggressive trade balance policy is asking/begging the rest of the world to play fair. Not gonna happen, ever.

And you can't ask Americans to do it themselves because most will gladly send their money and US jobs to Korea if they think it will save them a few bucks.

The excuses for why you bought a Hyundai are so boring. We all know why you bought one, no need to try and convince us that you somehow had no other logical choice. Just admit that you thought you could gain a small personal advantage (at the expense of your country and fellow worker).

Hyundias don't have that crazy long warranty because they are better than other makes, of course not. They have it because they are buying market share. They can afford to make much less on a car than GM because they:

1) Have full backing of their Gov. to go out and gain world market share.

2) Can manilpulate thier currency to make it "look" like they are making a bit of a profit and avoid dumping repercutions:

http://blog.aflcio.org/2009/05/13/curren...

Currency manipulation is a major contributor to the U.S. trade deficit. Our Japanese, Korean, Chinese and other Asian trade partners have resisted freely-floating currency values, which has made their exports more competitive vis-à-vis U.S. products. This has contributed to these Asian nations being respon-sible for almost half of the U.S.trade deficit. http://www.autotradecouncil.org/Upload/A...

3) Pay their workers $5 or whatever a day in Korea (where most US hyundais are built).

4) Don't have the horrible disease GM suffers from called "legacy costs" consisting of providing tens (hundreds?) of thousands of Americans with good pensions and healthcare (oh God the horror!).

Now put yourself in the shoes of Legacy Cost people as Japan and Korea get the final pay-off in their automotive trade war with US jobs. An engineer in Ohio who worked 35 years for his pension gets a letter saying the courts nullified his life's work. Another is a retired 30 year Tool and Die maker who never sat foot in a UAW meeting loses his pension in a parts supplier Bankruptcy. ETC.....

Sure you saved a few bucks buying that Korean Elantra (built solely in Korea), sending $20k dollars to Korea to stimulate and educate their society, repair their roads, etc. but in the long run it will cost you much more than what you saved.

You will pay for the failed pensions and healthcare benefitsn thru higher taxes. Who did you think was going to pay, the Gov.? All jobs will suffer some form of wage deflation as hundreds of thousands get thrown onto the job market, so even though you may not see it, you will be paid less in the future because of what is happening right now. IF....if, you still have a job.

Sure we can't go back in time and save the US home electronics industry or textile industry, but we might have another shot at saving the US auto industry WHICH IS WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT.

Rt.66: I excised a good chunk of what you wrote as I want to respond to your points about.

First off, let me say this: My dad worked for Ford Aerospace for a good amount of his 35+ years in the aerospace industry (he also worked for Jet Propulsion Labs in Pasadena and McDonnell-Douglas), so I have experience with Ford and can personally attest to the ups and downs of the American auto industry (through Ford vehicles) from the mid-1970s to the present.

Put bluntly, Ford cars from the mid-1970s to the mid-1980s were junk. Period. Poorly designed, poorly built and the workers could care less, as evidenced by the lack of workmanship and detail.

Before you go on and on about Japanese and Korean protectionism (and, yes, it certainly DOES exist and for the benefit of Japanese and Korean workers), GM was no different in terms of manipulating the US government for it's own ends. GM's maneuverings around the CAFE standards are a good example of this.

As to the "good" pensions and healthcare programs that GM underwrote: These were a huge mistake and a result of GM's caving in to the AFL-CIO and UAW during the "go-go" days of the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s, when GM controlled 50% market share and could afford (or so they thought) such largesse. As it turns out, they couldn't and that's a large part of why GM finds itself in the mess it's in, along with questionable purchases, such as Hughes and EDS.

I note that you're quoting from union sources, like AFL-CIO, in order to buttress your claims. I have a historical sense of respect for unionization and what that's meant for the American worker, but we're long since removed from the days of strike breaking and Matewan. The unions are largely responsible for their part in undermining the competitiveness of the very organizations their members worked for and management was just as purblind in their inability to recognize the changing nature of the automotive world and react accordingly.

GM became a success due to economies of scale and ultimately failed for the same reason: It lacked the agility to compete because of it's cumbersome size and unresponsive management structure. To lay blame for this fiasco solely at the feet of competing countries is to avoid not only responsibility but the truth of why it happened and to help prevent it from happening again.

If you're going to be honest about this, be honest about this and present all of the facts, not just those that your support your end of the argument. Oh, and my family only drives American (Ford) and always has, so let me blunt your riposte before it even comes.

Finally. Some intelligent discourse on this subject.

Hey Rt 66....

How's about pasting that sensible argument for supporting FAIR trade at:

http://nicko62.websitetoolbox.com/post?i...

Buying a HIE-YUN-DIE is like cheating on your spouse. It's all fun and games until you get caught.

Wal Mart cars for Wal Mart shoppers.

The lowest price is not always the best value.

http://nicko62.websitetoolbox.com/post?i...

Time for Jeff Bridges to dump Hyundai

http://nicko62.websitetoolbox.com/post?i...

yup...
let's all support these guys
http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=...

Nice read from you Allen (as always) :)

Do you remember what all cars were like in the 70s and 80s? Fiats, Renaults, BMW, Toyotas, Fords everything was shitty compared to today. Lets be honest about that. Most forget that a 1977 Toyota Corolla was no gem (they remember it was cheap though). There is a reason you don't see many cars from those vintages on the road and Japanese cars are no exception.

Allen said:
"GM became a success due to economies of scale and ultimately failed for the same reason: It lacked the agility to compete because of it's cumbersome size and unresponsive management structure. To lay blame for this fiasco solely at the feet of competing countries is to avoid not only responsibility but the truth of why it happened and to help prevent it from happening again.

If you're going to be honest about this, be honest about this and present all of the facts, not just those that your support your end of the argument. Oh, and my family only drives American (Ford) and always has, so let me blunt your riposte before it even comes."
-------------

There is no reason GM had to fail because its been serving America for 100 years. How old is Nissan/Datsun (really old)? If GM was making money 4-8 or 10 years ago or whenever, why not again?

Maybe we CAN lay blame for its demise solely at the feet of predatory trade partners? I am not saying GM was perfect, made all the right decisions or anything like that, that would be silly.

How do you know if our Gov. had demanded fair trade over the years that GM might be healthy right now?

Do you know how GM would have faired if our Gov. tarrifed cars from countries with national healthcare to an ammount equal to the unfair advantage they gain from that direct Gov. subsidy. How about currency manipulation? Nobody disputes the Asians have been doing it for decades and continue to do so.

How do we know that fair currency alone would not have put GM on a fair playing field?

How about law suit protection equal to what Asian firms enjoy?

Do you doubt that fair laws on ALL three fronts would make GM competetive? I don't. Even the most fervant of Japanes or Korean car supporters would probably admit that the US auto industry would be in much better health today if they only enjoyed what Japan and Korea have enjoyed for decades.

Asian countries do whatever it takes to keep them good jobs at home. We do little to nothing. They've got the jobs and we have the worst employment numbers since GD1.

Agressive fair trade policies work to keep jobs and money flowing into a country, Asian countries have resoundly proven that.

Total lack of fair trade policies provide MASSIVE job losses (lets not candy coat or down play the number of job losses here) and huge trade deficits and lack of money to fund infrastructure, America has resoundly proven that.

With all due respect, (you are a smart cookie I know), I don't believe facts you think "I left out" are facts as much as arguements that fail.

And please everyone no more "evil UAW" posts. There are 400-500 car parts suppliers here in SoCal hurting because of this mess. So move on from the UAW rant and look at ALL the job losses. UAW is the poster child for the "its ok to want them to die" movememt but they are a small portion of the total jobs we are losing.

we are going to buy what we can afford and hyundai is a good value
the ford fusion hybird is very expensive but gets 700 miles per gall

2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid Side-by-Side Comparison
Starting MSRP $27,270

http://www.cars.com/go/crp/research.jsp?...
The 41-mpg Ford Fusion Hybrid,
it may be a really good car but ive been screwed by american car companys especally gm i want a car that will last, with a little tlc

(VALUE FOR MY MONEY)

Well said rt 66...

One hundred per cent on the mark.

i love america and americans. i am a federal employee. i want to see america kick ass. trust me we need to wake up and smell the coffee. we have been kicked in the balls right now,and we will probably fall in the gutter (DEPRESSION)but we as americans will kick ass again trust me. i think it may have started with the tea partys. in my own honest opinion.

right now im going to stretch my dollar though

times are tough

Rt.66: I don't disagree that we (the US) have been sold down the river by our elected officials and I posted in another post that we've seen a considerable amount of our manufacturing sent overseas and allowed it to happen.

But, let's look at that for a moment. Why did that happen? In the case of the auto industry and competitiveness, isn't it fair to say that perhaps American workers were paid in excess of what was a competitive rate and largely because of the collective bargaining agreements that the AFL-CIO and UAW negotiated?

My dad was an aerospace engineer at Ford Aerospace. When I asked him once why Ford was in the aerospace business, he responded, "GM". GM bought Hughes and Ford immediately followed suit. Why were either Ford or GM in the aerospace business? For that matter, why did GM buy EDS (Ross Perot's Electronic Data Systems)?

My point on both topics (union concessions and the aerospace business): Is that neither the labor component nor the management component of either company was watching the ball anymore. Instead of focusing on "sticking to the knitting" and building good, reliable and, most importantly, well designed cars, GM and Ford were playing the role of globe trotting, "diversified" corporations and forgot what brought them success in the first place.

As to your comparing GM/Ford to Fiat, Toyota, Renault et al in the 1970s: I take your point, but it's somewhat specious, in that Fiat, Toyota, Renault and Co. were nowhere near the mammoth size of GM or Ford, nor were they possessed of their commensurate economies of scale, supply chain capabilities or in-house engineering acumen. GM and Ford had all the tools in place to continue their domination, but their failure to push back regarding wages and benefits and their inability to keep pace with the times and economic conditions ultimately doomed them.

By the way, GM was making money a few years back largely due to having renegotiated wages and benefits and by offering what amounted to suicidal financing options (remember 0%?) in order to do so. They failed to follow up and continue their push on the unions, which would have vastly altered the calculus of this equation, and they finally just ran out of time before some of their newer and better designs came to market.

As to the advantages that foreign automakers enjoy while on America soil: Yes, it is bullshit and I've said so before.

I'm not trying to demonize GM or AFL-CIO/UAW, but the final judgment rests with GM's management and the decisions of union leaders at AFL-CIO/UAW. It was a long time in coming (approx 30 years), but insular thinking and greed blew up GM.

I disagree. GM could have gone on paying $14 an hour to new hires and $27hr (about what Toyota and Honda pay US employees) to their very long term UAW employeees forever IF, if.... the 3 unfair trade advantages mentioned above had been addressed.

I've read that all 3 together add up to $4-$6k per car. Can you imagine how much more development GM could put into small profit margin economy cars had it not been for the Unfair advantage that Toyota, Hyundia etc. enjoy from their Job friendly and aggressive Governments?

GMs legacy costs are not an evil, anchor of non-competetiveness we should be chastising them for. Those legacy costs are pensions and healthcare. Important things that we all should be fortunate enough to have. They are doing our country a solid. Our Gov. should recognize that and provide a fair trade counterbalance to keep those flowing.

What do they do instead? Send the jobs to China, Japan and Korea and have the tax payer pick up the bill for folks cheated and thrown into poverty?

I don't care what it is anyone does for work I would just as eagerly defend any pension you earned.

Its f@cked up to let retired people and American jobs take it in the @ss because people in charge thinks its cool to allow foriegn countries with predatory, unfair and unjust trade policies to scam us into GD2.