San Diego Housing Bubble News and Analysis

Check AZ foreclosure laws but if the loan is non-recourse (a simple quicky google search says AZ purchase money are non-recourse regardless of investor or OO.. check yourself) and no second liens and all that...

I'd try a short sale while paying as agreed. Offer the servicers that option saying it is that or foreclosure and neither party wins with foreclosure. Some servicers will take that offer and so if you get a buyer and you paid as agreed up to the end then your credit isn't hit very hard. What really drops the FICO scores in the rolling late payments on foreclosures. Your credit hit will be a one off hit saying the account was paid off for less than full amount (I've heard that is only a 50-60 point fico hit but that would be something you need to investigate).

I think this option gives you the maximum FICO at the end and the maximum amount in the bank. I really wouldn't risk too much more money on the condo than that but your desire to maintain a high FICO is up to you.

On your list of options I definitely wouldnt do #2 (I doubt anything will change in 40 months and so your back in the same spot) or #3 (putting most of your money into a depreciating asset) if we call my option #5.. then I think #5, #4, #1 are the order in which I would look at things. But #4 and #1 may switch due to desirable housing availability (not able to buy right now) or some other reason to maintain a high fico score.

Best of luck.

Wow, big decisions, be careful actually using any advice you get in the coming days, it will vary from spam and ammo to buy another condo, especially ignore my advice.

Don't throw 40k at saving your credit, that's my least favorite, either buy now then let tempe go or pay it off, have it be gravy money for the rest of your life and go fha on your 500k house, and keep the part time job for 90k, stay with two kids that's enough, once you go to three it complicates vehicle purchases because most convertables only have two seatbelts in the back, hey you asked! Oh and the free meal with each paying adult deals, another reason to stand pat at two, did you not get a girl? If that's the reason you might end up with a basketball team before you get to have the experience of both. You've got a lot on your plate, give the reproduction urge a rest for a bit.

What about a loan mod, I have a buddy that got one on his rental, he only bought himself a few years but the mod made him rent neutral till about 2012.

Or there is another option, come up to my hood, to the land of the dirt people, endure the heat, make babies until your uterus falls out, pay 300 for a 5 br, have a mort of 125k tops, live on one income and live well, buy a nissan leaf next year with 368 mpg and you are all set. Why do you think we have like 9 mormom churches here, this place was made for you. I'm kiddng and i apologize, I'll put myself to bed now, but seriously, the first few paragraphs were somewhat sound advice and there's nothing wrong with Ramona, decent folk.

...the nugget in TG's advice that you may overlook within his exquisite light-hearted banter is that you should consider buying your long-term dream home NOW and then letting the AZ home go (since it will take awhile for your credit to recover)...

Decisions like these are hard to make and you won't know if you made a decent one at this juncture for another few years, but it's just money. You know the old saying, as long as you have your health...

4. Use our $175,000 cash to buy a house in San Diego while we still have 800+ credit scores and walk away from the Tempe condo (not sure if we have recourse loan - do remember the broker made it a "secondary home" loan to get us a competitive rate)

This is correct answer if your loan is non-recourse. Those $40K that you over paid will turn into $100K+ by the time you add the loan interest, taxes and loss in earnings if you had invested that money. Let the bank take the hit. Everybody else is doing. Think of the children, you can send them to college with that money.

Choice #4 is what many folks are doing. Another reason why this housing market will limp along for a long, long time. Especially AZ.

"I just read SD Realtor's post and think we will need every penny we have for a downpayment as the market is going up again"

Be careful with the thought that the market is going up again and you are going to be priced out. The market has seen a nice pop in the spring & summer months for homes under $500k in good areas of San Diego, but I think that most agree it won't continue to skyrocket back up. Greater chance it will fall back on stabilize.

Keep your part time job for a few more years and pay someone $20-$30k yr to help you with the kids. Keep in mind the condo in Tempe could take 5-10 more years to bounce back to a price where you would break even after fees, but if its in a good part of Tempe it should bounce back in 5-10 yrs.

Work harder on renting it. Its hard to believe an ASU student or young professional wouldn't pay $750 mo. How are you posting the rental? It might not be as easy this year to find someone (especially at $1k mo) but you should still be able to find somebody.

If not...try short sale. If you owe $120k and sell for $80k you will have to come up with approx $6k in closing costs and fees, so you are actually bringing more than $40k to the table and have already lost $20k down payment if you get out now.

Way I see it, you have 3 options if its a non recourse loan.

1. Stop paying now and just lose your down payment and credit ($20k loss)

2. Rent unit for next 5-10 yrs at approx $250 mo loss ($15k-$30k spread over 5-10 yrs)

3. Sell now for $80k. ($65k loss)

If you wouldn't be able to sleep at night if your credit was bad (or worried about stress of landlord for 5-10 more years), then just sell it now and hopefully you could get a little more than $80k so loss isn't as bad. Just know you will have to work a few more years to make it up.

The nugget in TGs advise is to stick with 2 kids! Trust me as a dad of 3. With 3 kids it seems someone always gets left out. Everything from amusement park rides to hotel rooms to airline seats gets WAY more complicated with 3 kids. My kids are great but just having 2 would have made my life so much less stressful. And yes I was trying for the boy....but hit the trifecta of girls instead!

I would vote for #1 along with your husband. I am conservative, and don't want to deal with any of the stress of this type of thing. I'm not the expert, but I read an article somewhere (maybe Time) in the last week that followed up on 3 couples who took the walk away option. They all seem to be living with family because of credit problems. I know your option/plan would be to buy first, so maybe this isn't a concern. But its always the unexpected that creates the hardship. Who know, credit cards, car loans, etc. Maybe increased rates on loans that will equal or exceed the $40k over the next 10 years.

In your description you seem to have treated the properties as investments. You made $80k by selling one property. You may lost up to $40k on another. So you still gain $40k for taking the risks, which isn't too bad. So another way to look at this is that you purchased a number of investments, and came out ahead.

I wouldn't choose to just take a loss first, but try to work with the bank and see if there are any options they will accept.

My opinion will undoubtedly be the most unpopular on this board. In my defense, my behavior/beliefs have worked extremely well for me financially.

You know, the part that made me cry (only once, I promise - now it's just time to suck it up and deal with this) is that I really love the rental home we are in and would have been happy staying put, keep saving and wait for the right time to buy and just slowly bleed a few hundred dollars with this "investment" but with the option I am leaning towards and the popular one here (OPTION #4) I feel like we would be forced to buy now even if it is not the "right" long-term family home and I hate feeling like we're being pushed into another bad decision.

You guys really do give great advice. Effective Demand - I think we could take a 50 pt hit on the FICO and still be OK, do you what we need to look for in the mortgage contract to determine if it is recourse or non?

TemeculaGuy - you have to understand, I'm one of 4 my hubbt one of 5 and it is just so clear in my heart that when I am an 80 yr old granny holding his hand in our rockers I just know I will be happy we decided to go for the brothers and sisters we give our children istead of the bigger house and toys... we'll have to make do with the current van - both cars are paid off so we're stuck with them anyway ;)

Svelte, bubble_contagion, deriving drunk and waterboy -- you guys spelled out exactly what I think we should do, as uncomfortable as it is to not know if it will be the right thing... and golfproz, my husband smiled the most at your advice. we're pretty sure we will have 3 girls too and hope that we are just blessed with healthy ones

And then there is bob2007... you echo exactly what my husband is saying. Exactly what he learned from his father who is the most conservative, hard-working, giving man that raised the man now taking care of me and my girls with more integrity than anyone else I know - definitely myself included. And his dad's name is Bob too.... sigh, now what??

trying2balance,

I would search the note for the term recourse. But even if it indicates it is recourse.. state law will supercede it if the state law says purchase money is non-recourse. The note saying it is non-recourse though would hold up just fine. I'd do some google searching on Arizona foreclosure recourse laws and ask in some of the forums you come across (look for specific statues, opinions don't count for much).

Best of luck

one question I forgot to answer - we have the tempe condo managed by a prop mgmt firm that has done a good job for us over the past 3 yrs (the first firm was a nightmare we survived, had to do an eviction, legal fees, headache after headache...) This new firm has the place advertised everywhere and said they have never seen this - started the school year with 20+ of the properties getting absolutely no traction. He said the ones that did rent had lowered their rates from as much as $1500 to $700 right away.

Also, maybe its fate but our rental lease is actually up in September, maybe they'll raise the rent on us who knows but it does seem like the right time to just buy and settle down somewhere. Or maybe we just take the $40,000 hit and not tie that decision into the purchase of our next home... but that makes me fee like the idiot "responsible taxpayer" that never comes out ahead.

I always find it interesting how so many people - particularly in So Cal I suppose - connect or equate living or doing things 'right' with money.

Maybe you need to try harder in marketing your rental unit? Did the rental market actually crash or is that your opinion?

Also, does the $1000 carrying cost include condo/HOA fees?

You sold your previous house based on reading a web site? Wow. Were shrewd and motivated enough to make 80k even though I'm sure it was disruptive to your family? I think it's safe to assume you are primarily motivated by money/$$, but the conundrum is your also a slave to the credit reporting system and you probably judge others on that basis as well.

Will all of that being said, I would still consider trying harder marketing the condo or even offer incentives with short term leases.

I'm sure the rental market - assuming it has crashed - will come back at some point.

Also, you might want to factor in that the MonaVie market may dry up at some point.

paramount, I am motivated very much by money... not bc I like to buy ipods or cars or jewelry or anything like that but bc I see it as giving us the piece of mind to be able to sleep at night knowing we can survive a tragedy and also bc I know how hard it is to make $1 given the long hours I work at night while my kids are asleep to bring in money (I work in marketing for a tech company - helping to close sales which gets harder and harder every day).

I felt like an idiot last week posting flyers all over the ASU condo in 110 heat after we took the 7 hr drive out here, so I don't know how much harder we can try and it seems ridiculous to lower the rent to a point where we are just postponing the inevitable... yes $1000 is mortgage, hoa, utilities, insurance, taxes

I don't know what MonaVie is...?? And I don't judge other people by their FICO scores, I judge them by what they give to others in terms of their time, friendship and care. And how they make you laugh too - of course - to forget the type of dilemma that hubby and I face now. thanks :)

Ok, so your motivated by $$ and fear...and also it sounds like your part time job is not really part time at all. You just work from home, am I correct?

On top of that, it sounds like you don't want the associated work and headaches associated with a rental unit. To me, that just sounds like laziness.

Perhaps for you and your husband this is what O refers to as a teachable moment?

TRY..
I'm a mortgage consultant and may be able to help.

Are both spouses on the condo loan ?
It doesn't sound like both of your incomes were needed to qualify and you should NOT have both been on that loan. Credit profiles of spouses are separate, unless you have joint debt.
Spouses can still be on title/deed to a property without being on the loan. This is routinely done for various reasons. Consult an attorney for legal advice.

A foreclosure could whack your credit scores 100 to 200 points, and disqualify you for financing regardless of down payment for a few years.

Your broker committed fraud and you were complicit in buying a rental property as a 2nd home.
You can get the same rate as an owner occupied home by paying a pricing hit, and then you're not committing fraud. That's 4.875% today.

MOST people get irresponsible mortgage advice from friends, neighbors and Realtor referrals and end up paying too much for the wrong loan, especially when it's free.

You can DEFINITELY rebuild a credit score, however,you will probably never recover the money that you are losing monthly to "protect" your credit score.

Another option is to try and find a qualified buyer who cannot qualify for a new loan, and give them an option to buy the condo from you for $1000 a month payment or $800 or $900 or whatever you are willing to cover. Many ppl have plenty of income but cannot qualify by today'a guidelines.
A bit of risk, but could help your situation.

When people shop for a mortgage, they truly don't understand what they are actually shopping for.

Feel free to contact me privately for honest advice.,,, HLS

PS: I hardly ever recommmend that anybody buy a condo for rental purposes anywhere, and per your #2, things ARE turning around. They have turned to the direction of reality and will continue for some time, esp in AZ. My guess is that condo will never be worth $140K in today's dollars. (Inflated dollars, maybe) I laugh everytime the experts talk about things turning around... they don't want to admit that the turn around has occured because they don't like the direction it's headed.

Most importantly, do not buy a house now unless you are confident that it is a house you will be happy with until the kids are grown and living independently (a very long time, since you are discussing having more children). While some whole areas may have bottomed (Temecula, for instance), and the lowest-end housing in many areas may have bottomed, the kind of house you will be looking for, in the areas you would look for it, are most likely to continue down for 1-2 years, and stay low for years after that. The only thing that would prevent this from being true would be government intervention on a scale dwarfing everything seen to date, in which case everybody, everywhere will be in trouble. If you are happy where you are today, there is no urgency to buy.

If you do buy now, think long and hard about how much to put down, as this money will be immediately at risk.

If you decide to be a landlord of small properties, buy locally. Distance makes everything harder, and prevents proper oversight of both tenants and property managers.

Your circumstances are better than most, so you have options others would not have. You have a serendipitous financial gain due to the real estate bubble from the sale of your former house. If you now face the prospect of a similar loss from the bursting of the real estate bubble, what is your net? Somewhere near even, I would say.

First, decide to sell the Tempe property for whatever it will bring.

Second, come to conclusion on the value of having a high credit rating. The negative effect does not last forever. And, you will have substantial resources, even after any loss is taken (if you do not put all your money in a new house).

Third, decide whether to avail yourselves of the benefits of any Arizona non-recourse laws (whose applicability is to be confirmed). These laws were enacted specifically to protect people from being taken advantage of by the highly organized real estate industry.

After all the preceding is settled, you will have a clearer view of the factors which bear on your highly personal decision about more children, and the relative importance of the income from working versus the additional time you could spend on family matters.

Did I miss something? Family income is $215K or about $12K/mo less taxes.

Tempe rent 1K plus SD rent 2.5K totals $3500/mo

Should be plenty of money to carry the condo, even empty no rent, while providing additional tax benefits.

Not thrilled with the idea of walking and letting bank hold the bag, which ultimately costs everyone in the long run.

My suggestion is to preserve your capital by staying the course and rent the condo at a loss. You are correct it is a slow bleed, but I think it is the best direction. And was previously mentioned, try carrying the paper on a sale. For the right buyer, it may work for all.

And my final bet is that if you are making $90K part time, you have a knack or are a major type A person who will continue to work even with a family of 5. Which is that much better for your immediate cash flow.

I hope not at the expense of the kids. Not to be mean; just making a sweeping generalization.

Good Luck.

When considering "walk-away" option, please check the link below:
http://marcmccain.com/current-events/ari...

Well as part of the royal screw up that was this condo, it turns out we have never been able to claim a tax benefit bc we make too much money (two accountants have explained this to us -- we can claim the tax benefit loss/depreciation if we sell it...)

My husband says we may owe income tax if we sell the condo, even at a $40k loss - true?

As for your bet on my personality type, you are spot on, scary almost. I have knack for closing million $ sales for my company, MAJOR Type A but also recognize that not focusing on rasinig the kids / keeping a home does affect the family and that is why I keep pulling back more and more from work, cutting my hours, turning down promotions, stock, comissions. In this case a VERY much care more about have a tranquil, simple lifestyle for kids vs more money.

But yes, you're right I probably would still do some consulting, "special projects" or something. And someone said we're just lazy to deal with the rental. Honestly, you're right too, there is a $ value we put to not going to bed every night stressed about something that is draining our time and savings accts.

I already only sleep about 5 hrs nite which is only way to keep up with work/client demands and still be hands on raising the little ones w/out daycare. My husband also works really hard -- we're not lazy in careers, kids, household, family, community but we are SO DONE with all of the real estate drama. Just want to pay our monthly rent or mortgage, settle down, raise the brood and then jump back into it all maybe in the next decade. I'm sure we'll time that completely wrong too...

Our philosophy when buying the first house and then this condo was that we would never sell either and pay off properties to build an income stream. Then we actually had the kids and realized that being a good parent is a full-time job plus more and we changed course and decided to work towards just being able to survive / enjoy life on the one income.

The first course of action is to sit down with your husband and agree to always stay calm, conduct further discussions in a civil manner, do not argue, do not raise your voice, do not become animated, and above all do not place blame. No doubt you’ve already engaged in heated discussions and ended feeling frustrated, scared, perhaps angry. Your family unit is the most important thing and issues like this are how cracks in the foundation of marriage start. The second order of business is to set a time limit (1 week at the most) and to select the decision maker. If you can’t agree on the decision maker, flip a coin. Once the decision is made, both must support it 100% and move forward aggressively. To help with the decision, you might consider reconstructing your post in the form of a Pugh Matrix. If you’re not familiar, you can google around and find out – fairly useful decision making tool based on a scoring system that takes out emotions, personal preferences while folding in your unique family priorities.

I wouldn’t waste time with a loan mod. You obviously will not qualify given your income level and lack of debt. The Phoenix/Tempe area has little intrinsic appeal and essentially tagged along for the bubble ride meaning no recovery and continued negative cash flow for the forseeable future (5+yrs) if you keep it. It won’t take long to catch up to the 40K potential loss. The short sale option is worth exploring if you can tolerate the bank dragging it out, but it sounds like you’re tired of the game and want to move on. If you pursue the short, don’t worry about the morality aspect of it (ie stiffing taxpayers). It’s perfectly legal and the topic of “Morality and the Law” has been debated every which way since the time of Plato with really no right or wrong answers.

My instinct is to sell the condo, take the loss, and move on. This will immediately reestablish and stabilize your financial baseline and allow you to decisively plan for the future, whether it’s having another child or buy another house. Lastly, try to shed any feelings of entitlement to the 80K you made or the 40K you might lose. No doubt you work hard for your money, but the bitterness will eat you alive and your family will notice it. You folks have a decent income and will survive this regardless of which course you take.

I read the link JustReader1 posted (below) and it looks like effective Sept 30 Arizona has changed its law to not allow walk-aways. So no matter what the money that we worked hard to save for our future ins going to end up in the hands of the banks. Who already have our tax money to help them weather their mistakes and keep home prices from correcting. I don't know if I'm more depressed or angry...

http://marcmccain.com/current-events/ari...

I doubt that any such law will be made to take effect. You refer to losing your $40K to banks. What about the $80K you gained on your other property? Did you get that other property by using money from banks, or did you pay all cash? Do you have any money in a bank? If the bank were made to lose the $40K, would you be OK if some of that $40K were taken from your bank deposits?

Not trying to be mean. I am just trying to point out that even nice people can be... dare I say it, selfish.

Tax consequence 1:
The sale of a rental property for less than you paid produces a capital loss for tax purposes. The general rule is that the capital loss may be offset against capital gains, which has the effect of eliminating the tax bite for the capital gains. If gains do not exist in the current year to offset against, the loss may be offset against gains in several past years and in future years. You mentioned already that you consult with accountants, who can calculate the dollar effect of the rules as applied to your set of income facts.

Tax consequence 2:
If debt is forgiven for real estate investment property, voluntarily or involuntarily, the amount of debt forgiven is treated as income, and would create some amount of income tax liability, determined by your other income tax facts. This means that money you give to the lender to "pay in full" is not a total loss. Some portion of it (had you not paid it) would have been lost to income taxes. Your total income tax picture would determine what portion. More consultation with accountants.

The profit you made from the sale of your previous house was not money that you worked hard to save. The real estate bubble giveth, and the real estate bubble taketh away.

You should sell the Tempe property and be happy. You are in good shape compared to most people.

Or look at it this way, you made 80k from one transaction, put that against the loan in tempe, then you will only owe 40k, you should always be able to rent it for positive cash flow, at the end of the day, when the balance sheet is settled, you kinda win, you have an asset that produces cash, probably will for some time, and in 15 or 20 years you can sell it and send the kids to college with it or send them to school in tempe and let them live in it.

If you could buy it for 40k you would probably do it today, so if you stop considering the 80k as your hard earned money and think of it as a gift from the san diego r/e gods, it will make the sacrifice of it to the tempe r/e gods that much easier.

The RE Bubble gods giving and taking - fair enough :)

TemeculaGuy, you said at first not to listen to your advice but now you're kinda making sense... I'm thinking our options now should be:

#1 - Try a short sale immediately

#2 - If short sale is no go but we can sell on our own for no more than $20k added loss, just sell/lose

#3 If we're going to lose more than $20k just "sink" that money to pay down the loan and get it neutral or at least back to what we could stomach losing per month.

If we're going to lose $40k of our cash to this condo wouldn't it make sense to just use that money to pay the place off or down to neutral... Only scenario that would not work is if truly we cannot rent the place EVER and it goes down even more (both likely I guess but maybe another risk worth taking...)

How did I just go from the least appealing option looking like it makes sense now?? I'm back to what got us in trouble in the first place, thinking RE will go up, and once you own property you should never sell, use it for income or only sell high.

how about do none of the above.

let your credit take a hit, keep renting, work out a lease to purchse with your
landlord so you get rent credit and buy the place in 5 years

I would do #2, or even better yet sell the condo to somebody that has a decent down as a 5 year interest only loan, then when they default down the road you can resell the condo for hopefully more dough. Isn't this the really successful business that banks are in. Seriuosly though a condo is a no-no as an investment, buying it out of town makes it even worse. I personally would sell it,carry the paper on an i/o loan. It's a win-win, you make good interest on the loan because the buyer has lousy credit or you resell it down the road (assuming the worst, that the buyer loses their job)when the market recovers. Third choice, move to Arizona, I hear the heat can be bearable if you have A/C. P.S.- I was born there but because of heatstroke I really don't remember much.J/K

Analyst - thanks so much for the tax info, I'll have to read it a few times to fully digest (our accountant is a friend of a friend who just dous our annual tax filing, we'll have to get more info on this once we decide what to do).

Do wish we could buy the house we're renting - owner paid $900,000 cash for it in 2004 and I don't know that they would sell for $500,000 even though one up the street with 600 more sq ft sold a few months ago for $550 -- but I'm going to ask the property mgr to inquire as we're set to go month to month.

Threadkiller - how does our being the lender work? We pay the $120k or so we owe off, and then sell for say $90k and manage the "mortgage" at 5 percent for years? Sounds like way too much risk -- especially for my husband -- to take with like 80 percent of our life savings. But I guess the risk is not terrible as if like you say they put a good amt down and we just consider that it's as if we were renting it out the whole time, should they default.

Still, I smell attorney fees and more trips to heatsville wouls be involved in that option - which is pretty unappealing (it was SO hot when we were there last week, nothing like loving our cool and expensive San Diego air once we got back home!)

By the way, our "property manager" has not returned our calls in 5 days, would not meet with us while we were there, did not put up the signs we asked him to and he said his staff had to advertise in the condo window... So I have to terminate that contract tomorrow unless there is some very good reason for the lapses and we'll keep the unit empty I guess as we try to short sale or just straight sale at a loss...

Whoever said this is a learning moment was right -- I'm happy to serve as the example for all of you of the mess that can happen when you buy a rental out of state, argh!!

Tryingtobalance it is a tough spot. However I would not recommend making any purchase on a home especially if if means giving up your emergency money. It just makes no sense. I have been renting for the past 3 years and I can admit freely that it sucks 100% but that is just me. Others love it and have no problem. However if there is a question about employment then I just cannot promote purchasing a home.

I think that it is a tough spot you are in for the rental. Honestly if it were me I would consider short selling it or walking away and just take the hit on the credit. I know that will screw you for a few years but there are a whole lot of people in that boat. Also if you just put the pedal to the metal and save money like crazy, then perhaps your credit return will be coincident with a high rate environment where cash will be king. So maybe in 3 years you are riding high with 250k in cash and a return of acceptable credit.

Now the bitter part of me may say go ahead and buy now, then let the tempe home go into foreclosure. I know people who have done that... Yes you can do that. Also if your hubby lost his job you could depend on the govt or bank not to foreclose but that is a pretty big risk and one I would not take. So if you do go that route you should put as little cash down as you can.

Another possible route is to go to a bank and see if you can get a bridge loan... That is, if you don't wanna see the 40k go out the door, you sell the Tempe condo, then get a loan to pay off the 40k. The loan would be unsecured and probably not be a great rate, but at least you would be morally culpable and not losing that extra 40k nut and keep your credit intact. Also that would be one less loan that my tax money doesn't backstop but what the hell difference does one more make...

Anyways yes it is a tough tough choice. Getting a 400k home in RB is tough these days. Are you thinking Westwood? Prices have jumped there over the past 6 months. It may be best to sit tight, continue to rent, and let them come back to you in an undetermined amount of time.

I know I'm being a pest about something you aren't really asking about but back to your point about wanting a big tribe because you and your husband were from large families isn't sitting well with me. Just tell me that that you want what you want regardless of the cost and I'll let it go, but your argument is flawed. My mother is one of 10 kids, yet none of those ten had more than 3 kids of their own, most had 2, I'll bet others will report similar results, i only had one sibling and I don't feel jipped. Don't do it for them, if it's for you, that's fine, but understand that it has it's costs and not all are financial. Also the rocking chair thing, of the ten that my grandmother had, only two actually spoke to her by the time she made it to that chair, but both my moms kids will be by her side when she gets that chair, so it really doesn't improve the odds of happiness all that much, the law of diminishing returns comes into play. If it is a religion thing, then knock yourself out, my apologies for even questioning it.

Back to the 215k per year with 25k rent someone mentioned, even if you paid off the condo, the income and your own savings potential, should put you into a great situation even if rates were to climb, you can buld a substantial downpayment in no time.

But if it were me, I'd call HLS, get his take in person, nobody knows financing and credit scores better. He's handled many transactions for longtime piggy's and we are no easy crowd to please, this is not where he makes his bread and butter, we are a pain in the a$$ crowd and not one person has complained so i feel totally comfortable telling you to call him, whichever way you go.