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That is great news, killing the Dream Act was the only good thing that came out of Washington. That is nothing more than a back door amnesty program. Once those kids are granted citizenship, they will just petition their parents and other family members. Just more drain on our already broken social programs. Unfortunatly, everything else Congress did worsened our financial situation, such as extending unemployment benefits (again) and worst of all, keeping the Bush tax cuts.

Sorry conservatives, but regardless of the propaganda you hear from Rush and company, do you really belive lowering taxes for the rich will improve the country's deficit? Really?

From wikipedia:

DREAM Act individuals would have very limited ability to sponsor family members for U.S. citizenship. They could never sponsor extended family members and they could not begin sponsoring parents or siblings for at least 12 years. Parents and siblings who entered the U.S. illegally would have to leave the country for ten years before they could gain legal status and the visa backlog for siblings is decades long.

Out of curiosity, are you familiar with the petitioning process, especially for Mexicans?

Here's how it would've worked, if the Dream Act were passed.

If you're an illegal immigrant under 30, you have a high school diploma, a person of good moral character, etc. etc., you can apply for "conditional nonimmigrant status". This status allows you to work or to study, but you can't sponsor any family members, and you are subject to deportation if you commit a crime.

You stay in this status for 10 years. After the 10 years, you have to show that you got at least a two-year college degree or that you have served in the military. If that's true, you can apply for a green card. No one knows how long it will take to get the green card (with all the 500,000 conditional nonimmigrants simultaneously trying to file for adjustment of status). Let's be optimistic and call it two years.

After three years with a green card, you can apply for citizenship. Once again, this takes at least a year from the filing to the ceremony.

If you're keeping track, it is the year 2027 now. And now finally you'll be able to petition for your parents and other family members.

With your parents, that's relatively easy. $420 for each parent and a couple of years. By the year 2035, they will naturalize, and, by 2037 or so, they'll start bringing their unmarried children under 21 into the country.

At this point, the process comes to a complete stop. Because, to petition for any other family member other than parents, unmarried children under 21, and spouses, you have to file papers and then wait for the "cut-off date" to arrive. The cut-off date exists because there's a fixed number of family-reunification visas available for each country, and the demand for those visas from Mexico far outstrips supply. So you go to the end of the line. As of today, the wait is 15 to 18 years long, depending on specific relationship. And it keeps getting longer.

And the bottom line is, most likely none of us would still be alive by the time first "other family members" of DREAM act beneficiaries start legalizing.

The young immigrants will have at least a 2-year college education. How is that a drain on social programs?

Can't argue with Wikipedia.. But if this is all true, the Dream act is a big nothing burger, a smoke screen to temporarily appease the illegal immigrant supporters like brian.

Since you're the expert, what kind of job can someone get in a "conditional nonimmigrant status"? Certinaly can't get very far in the military cause no way you're getting a security clearance.

Based on what you are saying, I would venture to guess many of these kids are better off staying undocumented. Obviously being undocumented has not been a hindrance to getting work for millions of people.

At this point in time (note the unemployment rate), a person with only a 2-year degree is highly unlikely to be able to support him/herself AND be able to cover all their expenses, including healthcare and education expenses, for themselves and for their children (if they've had any after moving here, which is a distinct possibility).

The fact is, we don't need any additional workers in this country right now, with the exception of a very few jobs that might *perhaps* need expertise found more readily outside the country. This does not mean we need to hire cheaper workers, just more experienced/qualified ones (even at a higher cost).

OTOH, I've always believed that if someone serves in our military, especially in a war, they've certainly earned their citizenship.

In theory, any job that exists. I know that many H1B immigrants were very unhappy about this law, because, if you try to immigrate here via the H1B process (for which, a master's degree or equivalent is mandatory), you have to keep working in the same industry and possibly with more or less the same job description till you get the green card, but the "conditional nonimmigrant" can do anything he/she wants.

Getting security clearance is a different story. I'm not sure if a former illegal immigrant can get security clearance at all. In the private industry, security clearance usually implies U.S. citizenship. And even then you go through a rigorous background check up to the point of having FBI agents go to places where you lived 20 years ago, knocking on doors and talking to your former neighbors.

There's no advantage to staying undocumented. You have to find ways to beat E-Verify, you have to hide from the cops, your chances of getting a good job get progressively slimmer as you move up the food chain...

The biggest problem I have with the law as the Congress tried to pass it, is that it basically gives a 10-year immunity from deportation to anyone who manages to graduate from high school, even though only a small fraction of those would actually end up meeting college/military requirements down the road. This part could've been better written. By the time the 10-year period expires, half of the "conditional nonimmigrants" will have 8-year-old kids and they'll have no choice but to go off the books.

On the other hand, I wouldn't mind allowing said illegals to pay in-state rates for college tuition, as long as they qualify for college admissions on general grounds (this was, I believe, taken out of the bill over GOP objections). That is already the case in California, because crafty state attorneys made that happen; but it's not the case everywhere. Any student intelligent enough to pass admission tests should be able to get college education, regardless of his/her legal status.

BTW, an interesting fact related to that 15-year long wait to get an immigrant visa that I mentioned earlier. I recall reading that something like half of all illegal immigrants currently in this country are on that list. In other words, their U.S. citizen relatives filed the family reunification petition some time in 1995 or 2000, the petition is still on hold (for who knows how long), in the mean time, they are already here, they have a house and they are working whatever jobs they can get, in anticipation of legal status that they know they'll eventually get.

[quote=EugeneBTW, an interesting fact related to that 15-year long wait to get an immigrant visa that I mentioned earlier. I recall reading that something like half of all illegal immigrants currently in this country are on that list. In other words, their U.S. citizen relatives filed the family reunification petition some time in 1995 or 2000, the petition is still on hold (for who knows how long), in the mean time, they are already here, they have a house and they are working whatever jobs they can get, in anticipation of legal status that they know they'll eventually get.[/quote]

Eugene, this wouldn't surprise me. But what I don't understand is if someone is living in the US illegally why would the US grant them a green card? I would exepect that they would be required to go through an interview process at a US consulate in Mexico (or whatever country). THis would require them to return to their country at some point.

I have a big problem with illegal immigrants getting CA-state tuition rates in CA at this current time, when the state budgets are so crunched that even legal CA residents are feeling significantly pinched...Simply because we (CA) cannot afford this...Now if the state would balance the budgets, cut fat, and cut some of the pensions, that would be entirely different story...But CA do that, yeah right....

Personally, before I think we should even entertain offering CA-state tuition rates to illegal immigrants, we should be offering lower cost education to to out of state people applying to begin with.

That or to start requiring illegal immigrants to pay for taxes before using state funded benefits.

I think folks need to be reminded, CA can't afford this, really.

obviously the point here is to reward illegals that have made good. there's nothing wrong with that.

but seriously, the bar is a little too low with 2 year degrees qualifying. what, a degree from UofPhoenix would qualify too?

make it strict, get into a good top 100 4 year university and we'll give you citizenship. I would even throw in the tuition!

If someone is of caliber to get into a top 100 4 year school, screw how they ended up here, we need to keep them around. Hey, if this motivates other illegals to try to sneak into this country, even better!

Are you serious about hiding from cops? Police are virtually powerless in regards to illegal immigrants. Unless they are pulled over for a serious crime, there is no chance they will be deoported. Even then they are not typicall deported.

Regarding in-state tuition, I am strongly against that. Illegals by definition do not pay state or federal income tax, why should they get a break on in-state tuition at a publicly funded university? Meanwhile, law abiding citizens from outside of California have to pay a fortune to attend a UC school. Why should illegal non-citizens get a huge break?

Not sure why you think this. Both with regards to the definition of illegal and that the undocumented pay no state or federal income tax.
Neither is innacurate.

So, they'll return to their country for the interview. What's the problem? The U.S. government has no knowledge of the fact that they were really here all this time. Unless they are caught:

Lots of people do end up deported. And being deported is really bad for immigration prospects.

Strictly speaking, none of the kids in the universities pay state or federal income tax, do they? They have zero income. The idea that we assist with for their tuition and they repay from their future taxes. Which they'll pay if they are legalized.

As for their parents, most lower-income people don't pay any income taxes anyway. Everyone regardless of legal status pays payroll, sales and property taxes.

Well if you are realistic lower income people are not generally attending universities anyway especially not top tier schools like UC, unless they are provided assistance which is usually tax payer supported in one way or another.

Which proves the bigger point here that the Dream Act is a whole lot of nothing. If it were enacted, probably would have very minimal impact other than the pro illegal immigration crowd could claim a short term victory in their fight towards the real goals which are amnesty for all undocumented and eventually fully open borders.

right now as part of the immigration pipeline is the the money and employment factor. Immigrants can apply for legal status claiming they have essential skills needed by American companies or if they have enough money to invest in the country and create jobs.

Essentially what the country is saying is we value your skills and we value your money.

What is wrong with saying we value your academic achievements? which we know eventually lead to skills and money. (and like I mentioned earlier, raise the bar, as I'm sure we all know the quality of the student body at most community colleges).

What does academic achievement have to do with the Dream Act? Graduating from a two year community college is considered achievement? Or serving the military even though you can't perform most critical functions because you can't get a security clearance?

read my previous post again, I said raise the bar of academic achievement to something along the line of top 100 4 year college.

I actually think that a two-year college education is pretty high achievement compared to the rest of the citizenry.

I agree with with ocrenter that we want to reward educational achievement. We should automatically give Green Cards to foreign students who graduate from the top 100 universities.

I believe that a point-based immigration system like Canada's would serve us better.

That might make some sense if we weren't in a recession with 10% unemployment. It's hard enough for a new college graduate to get a job today, don't need to add more competition.

Point is, as someone else mentioned, in this economic climate it doesn't make sense to import any workers except certain specifically qualified individuals that are in short supply. This is probably the main reason the dream act ultimately failed.

that's actually a very good idea. especially since we ourselves are not producing enough skilled and educated workforce, this is a great way to keep America strong while the native-borns immerse themselves in video-games/TVs/and chips.

deadzone, look at all the great empires of the past. They all peaked during the periods they were most open, attracting educated talent from around the world.

America has the opportunity to become the country where educated people want to be live. We can absorb all the brightest brains from around the world.

We should make it very easy for educated people to immigragte here. Giving foreigners Green Cards is no guarantee that they will live in USA, but they have the option, if they want to.

During periods of high unemployment, we could scale back family-based immigration to give priority to educated immigrants.

Rome being sacked by the Huns comes to mind.

That's more like what we have now under the current system.

If we welcomed educated immigrants from around the world, and educate those who aren't educated, then we'd have a more prosperous society.

Remember that about two milenias later, the Huns as well as other barbarians are now all Europeans. The process of assimilation can be slow or it can be accelerated.

You are right about that Brian, we are being sacked. I would welcome a system that streamlines immigration that emphasizes healthy, educated immigrants who are bringing something to the country. We do not need an underclass of peasants. Maybe that is what corporations want, but it is not what the country needs. If anything, our middle class of hard working people is the strength of the country, not the super rich and not the desperately poor. We are not going to grow the economy with entitlements for either of those.

I have mentioned it before, but will bring it up again, we have a family friend who is wealthy who wanted to move to Australia. He has had a heart attack, so although he would never conceivably need medical care, they refused him because he "could" someday be a burden to their country. That is how they protect themselves from people who would drain their economy.

Totally agree with this, Aecetia.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/16/us/pol...

Obviously a calculated political move.

But it is the right thing to do. These kids would essentially be foreigners to their country of origin.

How is it a calculated move since Obama has been supporting the Dream Act all along?
The republicans have blocked the Dream Act.

This is really about doing the right thing, some relief for those kids while Republicans are obstructing.

So please explain how an illegal can pay state or federal income tax when they do not have a SSN or TIN? TIN's are given to legal aliens w/ green cards by the way. SSN is naturalized citizen. Income tax payments from employers on behalf of an employee are associated with an SSN/TIN - it is not just a big pool of money dumped by an employer at the Franchise Tax Board and Internal Revenue service's doors. This is also how the Social Security Administration can come up with your pay history for your Social Security Benefits, which they annually send out the Benefit Analysis sheet to citizens who are employed.

A lot of the wages for illegals are handled as cash under the table - Cash = not track-able. Note that I highlighted income which is not the same as sales tax.