OT: Reason #168 to hate california. stupid emissions rules

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Submitted by flu on December 14, 2012 - 11:31am

So... I was toying with the idea of building a track spec car from ground up that would also be street legal... I found a relatively inexpensive used car that was I was about to purchase... So prior to purchasing, I decide what the hell, go get it smogged.

Well it failed.... and the issue is the catalytic converter is most likely shot.

So I'm thinking no big deal, parts on this car is totally cheap... Catalytic converter: $68...Cool..
Then I read the fine print.... "49 state legal...Not legal in California, not sold to California..."...So I clicked on the link to the California "special edition one"...

Same catalytic converter, with the exception of a etching/sticker on it that says California CARB compliant or something like that.... Cost of the California "special" cat??? $400, plus tax not including labor...
Yup.....

I called the manufacturer...The two catalytic are identical except for the stupid CA CARB etching...

Furthermore, most aftermarkets have since then stopped producing catalytics for CA because of the stupid rules.

(Needless to say. I skipped on the car purchase. And since the car failed smog, the car is already flagged in CA DMV so the owner is not not gonna be able to sell it to anyone else until it's resolved....Whoops...)

Thank you Arnold for Executive Order D-193-86

Note to people that plan on keeping an older car around...If you ever need to replace your catalytic out of warranty, be prepared to bend over....Not many aftermarket companies left to do it for CA, and the ones that do are gonna totally jack up the price just to rip you off....

Submitted by AN on December 14, 2012 - 11:55am.

Don't get me started on CARB...

Submitted by bearishgurl on December 14, 2012 - 11:57am.

flu, I know LOTS of people who have applied for and qualified for assistance in the last few years to get older vehicles smogged. The assistance is good to use at any CA Test and Repair stations.

It's totally worth it to do this application. If you have to register your vehicle non-op while you wait for approval, then so be it. Don't pay a penny until its fixed.

Wait to load:

http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov/80_BARResour...

However, I AM pissed at Arnold for raising the "baseline" DMV registration fee from $39 to $64 to (now) $87.

This is highway robbery for an annual registration sticker for a 20+ year-old vehicle.

Submitted by flu on December 14, 2012 - 11:59am.

AN wrote:
Don't get me started on CARB...

California has some of the most stupid rules regarding carb....

Well the irony is that if the car is out of state and subsequently registered here, no carb sticker required on the smog test. It only applies if you need to replace the part, and the you need a stupid carb sticker/etching on the part..And the manufacturer will gouge you for it.

Morale of the story #2..If you have an out of state car, keep it registered out of state as long as you can.

Submitted by flu on December 14, 2012 - 12:09pm.

bearishgurl wrote:
flu, I know LOTS of people who have applied for and qualified for assistance in the last few years to get older vehicles smogged. The assistance is good to use at any CA Test and Repair stations.

It's totally worth it to do this application. If you have to register your vehicle non-op while you wait for approval, then so be it. Don't pay a penny until its fixed.

Wait to load:

http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov/80_BARResour...

However, I AM pissed at Arnold for raising the "baseline" DMV registration fee from $39 to $64 to (now) $87.

This is highway robbery for an annual registration sticker for a 20+ year-old vehicle.

first of all, I wouldn't qualify for the financial hardship assistance. second, when one sells the car in CA, the burden of getting it smoged and passed is usually for the seller.

The seller didn't want to deal with getting it smogged since the car wasn't used often, so they offered me a very low selling price..I agreed on condition that it passed smog...Didn't think it would fail. But it did...

It really wouldn't matter if I was going to use the car for "track purposes only" because in that case I could keep the car as non-operating and not need to register it...BUT, then I wouldn't be able to park the car in public roads...which sucks...So......too much hassle... So i ended up offering the person XXXX minus $400 for the cat... (my personal labor is cheap at $0...)...Person said they would get back to me on monday...

At any case, it's not really my issue. The person that ends up suffering is this person who needs to sell the car and is cash-strapped. The person doesn't want to keep the car, but wants to sell it because they say they need the money and/or doesn't want the extra expense...But since it failed smog, they aren't going to be able to sell it to normal buyers without getting it fixed first..And no way a normal buyer, upon seeing it has emissions issues, is gonna want to deal with it unless cat is replaced correctly. Person is screwed...

Submitted by creechrr on December 14, 2012 - 12:10pm.

What year car? OBDII?

Beginning January 1st, MY 2000 and newer will not have to spin the rollers for smog anymore. They going to start just checking the ECU for codes at a "STAR" station.

I think this could be beneficial to some with modified cars.

An O2 sensor spacer could be of benefit.

I can't find the specific reference at the moment but, there was speculation that a verification of the code will be performed on '06 and newer vehicles. I assumption was that the check would be done by comparing the checksum data supplied by the OEM against what the ECU is reporting at the time of inspection. That could make reflahsing more challenging.

Yes, I'm also starting to hate this great state.

Submitted by bearishgurl on December 14, 2012 - 12:10pm.

flu wrote:
bearishgurl wrote:
flu, I know LOTS of people who have applied for and qualified for assistance in the last few years to get older vehicles smogged. The assistance is good to use at any CA Test and Repair stations.

It's totally worth it to do this application. If you have to register your vehicle non-op while you wait for approval, then so be it. Don't pay a penny until its fixed.

Wait to load:

http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov/80_BARResour...

However, I AM pissed at Arnold for raising the "baseline" DMV registration fee from $39 to $64 to (now) $87.

This is highway robbery for an annual registration sticker for a 20+ year-old vehicle.

first of all, I wouldn't qualify for the financial hardship assistance. second, when one sells the car in CA, the burden of getting it smoged and passed is usually for the seller.

The seller didn't want to deal with getting it smogged since the car wasn't used often, so they offered me a very low selling price..I agreed on condition that it passed smog...Didn't think it would fail. But it did...

It really wouldn't matter if I was going to use the car for "track purposes only" because in that case I could keep the car as non-operating and not need to register it...BUT, then I wouldn't be able to park the car in public roads...which sucks...So......too much hassle...

At any case, it's not really my issue. The person that ends up suffering is this person who needs to sell the car. The person doesn't want to keep the car, but wants to sell it because they say they need the money...But since it failed smog, they aren't going to be able to sell it to normal buyers without getting it fixed first..And no way a normal buyer, upon seeing it has emissions issues, is gonna want to deal with it unless cat is replaced. Person is screwed...

I understand this assistance won't help a buyer. But it helps an owner whose vehicle can't pass a biennial smog inspection. If your seller wants assistance and can qualify for it, they will have to wait to sell it until AFTER it's next biennial smog inspection is due. They COULD get it inspected a few months ahead of when their registration expires (but after they receive the renewal in the mail requiring a smog check). Then, when it fails, put in the application. Hopefully they would be able to get it approved and fixed BEFORE the current sticker expires.

But yes, your seller is "stuck" with not being able to sell the vehicle right now without paying themselves for the smog repair.

Submitted by bearishgurl on December 14, 2012 - 12:15pm.

creechrr wrote:
What year car? OBDII?

Beginning January 1st, MY 2000 and newer will not have to spin the rollers for smog anymore. They going to start just checking the ECU for codes at a "STAR" station.

I think this could be beneficial to some with modified cars.

An O2 sensor spacer could be of benefit.

I can't find the specific reference at the moment but, there was speculation that a verification of the code will be performed on '06 and newer vehicles. I assumption was that the check would be done by comparing the checksum data supplied by the OEM against what the ECU is reporting at the time of inspection. That could make reflahsing more challenging.

Yes, I'm also starting to hate this great state.

OBDII started in 1996. creech, do you mean those vehicles 2000 and newer or those vehicles utilizing OBDII will no longer have to undergo a smog inspection?

A typical "oxygen sensor" replacement (or the like) is about $168 (MUCH less than a typical smog repair).

Submitted by flu on December 14, 2012 - 12:16pm.

creechrr wrote:
What year car? OBDII?

Beginning January 1st, MY 2000 and newer will not have to spin the rollers for smog anymore. They going to start just checking the ECU for codes at a "STAR" station.

I think this could be beneficial to some with modified cars.

An O2 sensor spacer could be of benefit.

I can't find the specific reference at the moment but, there was speculation that a verification of the code will be performed on '06 and newer vehicles. I assumption was that the check would be done by comparing the checksum data supplied by the OEM against what the ECU is reporting at the time of inspection. That could make reflahsing more challenging.

Yes, I'm also starting to hate this great state.

it's a 94... And yes, I'm aware of the new tests through the OBD port only...BUT, it's not happening yet. Trust me... I looked into it...That's another stupid rule...

If your car has OBD2, rather than sampling emissions out of the tailpipe, they'll just read it from OBD2 data....Meanwhile, people with money with resources to fudge the ECU will pass just fine...Lol....

Totally backassward.

Also, I was talking to some smog guys and a lot of people are getting out of the business...

It seems like if the smog test place reports cars that fail, it counts against them (even if they are a test only facility...)...I was like huh?

Also, they are now subject to random inspection...So CA inspectors will bring a stock car in, maybe loosen one plug/o2 sensor just a bit...And even if the car passes smog, but the smogger didn't catch the slightly loosened sensor, they'll get flagged/dinged....
Pretty stupid...

Submitted by creechrr on December 14, 2012 - 12:20pm.

Yes, OBDII started with MY '96 but, my understanding is that the new test with be performed on from MY 2000 on up. I think this is when the post-cat O2 sensor became mandatory.

It appears to me that the an ECU clear of codes and the post-cat sensor will be the gate keepers to a smog certificate going forward.

Submitted by bearishgurl on December 14, 2012 - 12:24pm.

flu wrote:
creechrr wrote:
What year car? OBDII?

Beginning January 1st, MY 2000 and newer will not have to spin the rollers for smog anymore. They going to start just checking the ECU for codes at a "STAR" station.

I think this could be beneficial to some with modified cars.

An O2 sensor spacer could be of benefit.

I can't find the specific reference at the moment but, there was speculation that a verification of the code will be performed on '06 and newer vehicles. I assumption was that the check would be done by comparing the checksum data supplied by the OEM against what the ECU is reporting at the time of inspection. That could make reflahsing more challenging.

Yes, I'm also starting to hate this great state.

it's a 94... And yes, I'm aware of the new tests through the OBD port only...BUT, it's not happening yet. Trust me... I looked into it...That's another stupid rule...

If your car has OBD2, rather than sampling emissions out of the tailpipe, they'll just read it from OBD2 data....Meanwhile, people with money with resources to fudge the ECU will pass just fine...Lol....

Totally backassward.

Also, I was talking to some smog guys and a lot of people are getting out of the business...

It seems like if the smog test place reports cars that fail, it counts against them (even if they are a test only facility...)...I was like huh?

Also, they are now subject to random inspection...So CA inspectors will bring a stock car in, maybe loosen one plug/o2 sensor just a bit...And even if the car passes smog, but the smogger didn't catch the slightly loosened sensor, they'll get flagged/dinged....
Pretty stupid...

flu, is the vehicle you are eyeing a Toy/Lexus product?

Most Toyotas and all Lexuses began using OBDII in 1994, but they are the exception.

Submitted by flu on December 14, 2012 - 12:34pm.

bearishgurl wrote:
flu wrote:
creechrr wrote:
What year car? OBDII?

Beginning January 1st, MY 2000 and newer will not have to spin the rollers for smog anymore. They going to start just checking the ECU for codes at a "STAR" station.

I think this could be beneficial to some with modified cars.

An O2 sensor spacer could be of benefit.

I can't find the specific reference at the moment but, there was speculation that a verification of the code will be performed on '06 and newer vehicles. I assumption was that the check would be done by comparing the checksum data supplied by the OEM against what the ECU is reporting at the time of inspection. That could make reflahsing more challenging.

Yes, I'm also starting to hate this great state.

it's a 94... And yes, I'm aware of the new tests through the OBD port only...BUT, it's not happening yet. Trust me... I looked into it...That's another stupid rule...

If your car has OBD2, rather than sampling emissions out of the tailpipe, they'll just read it from OBD2 data....Meanwhile, people with money with resources to fudge the ECU will pass just fine...Lol....

Totally backassward.

Also, I was talking to some smog guys and a lot of people are getting out of the business...

It seems like if the smog test place reports cars that fail, it counts against them (even if they are a test only facility...)...I was like huh?

Also, they are now subject to random inspection...So CA inspectors will bring a stock car in, maybe loosen one plug/o2 sensor just a bit...And even if the car passes smog, but the smogger didn't catch the slightly loosened sensor, they'll get flagged/dinged....
Pretty stupid...

flu, is the vehicle you are eyeing a Toy/Lexus product?

Most Toyotas and all Lexuses began using OBDII in 1994, but they are the exception.

No....

No offense. But, Lexus and "track car" are not two words that I would put in the same sentence...

As far as Toyota, couldn't find a Supra or MR2, nor are they the cars I have in mind since I wanted something that weighs less.

Submitted by creechrr on December 14, 2012 - 12:32pm.

flu wrote:

It seems like if the smog test place reports cars that fail, it counts against them(even if they are a test only facility...)...I was like huh?

Pretty stupid...

What? That would only encourage the smog shop to fudge the test.

I personally have a car that is due for smog and I'm waiting till January. I want to see how this new process works or doesn't. My cat is 8 years old with a couple track days and canyon runs on it. I think I'd rather the port test.

Submitted by flu on December 14, 2012 - 12:33pm.

creechrr wrote:
flu wrote:

It seems like if the smog test place reports cars that fail, it counts against them(even if they are a test only facility...)...I was like huh?

Pretty stupid...

What? That would only encourage the smog shop to fudge the test.

I personally have a car that is due for smog and I'm waiting till January. I want to see how this new process works or doesn't. My cat is 8 years old with a couple track days and canyon runs on it. I think I'd rather the port test.

Yup, I double checked with the person that I heard correctly.

Submitted by moneymaker on December 14, 2012 - 12:33pm.

I had a similar experience trying to smog my '88 jeep. Online the catalytic converter (cheapest I could find) was like $279,add to that the installation and you're around $400. So i called the local parts places, found it at NAPA for like $179, went in and the manager knocked off another $30 bucks. Had my neighbor weld it in and passed the test better than it ever had since I've had the car (16 years). So now I can sell the car, but I love it so much that probably won't happen anytime soon.

Submitted by bearishgurl on December 14, 2012 - 12:34pm.

flu wrote:
No....

No offense. But, Lexus and "track car" are not two words that I would put in the same sentence...

As far as Toyota, couldn't find a Supra or MR2, nor are they the cars I have in mind.

flu, I didn't notice you were looking for a track car. I understand now :-]

Submitted by flu on December 14, 2012 - 12:35pm.

moneymaker wrote:
I had a similar experience trying to smog my '88 jeep. Online the catalytic converter (cheapest I could find) was like $279,add to that the installation and you're around $400. So i called the local parts places, found it at NAPA for like $179, went in and the manager knocked off another $30 bucks. Had my neighbor weld it in and passed the test better than it ever had since I've had the car (16 years). So now I can sell the car, but I love it so much that probably won't happen anytime soon.

Your's might not have a carb sticker on it. :)

Submitted by moneymaker on December 14, 2012 - 12:38pm.

It does.

Submitted by flu on December 14, 2012 - 12:39pm.

moneymaker wrote:
It does.

Hmmmm.. let me go check out napa....Might get lucky....

Submitted by creechrr on December 14, 2012 - 12:46pm.

What model car are we talking about?

I can only think of a handful that would be worth the effort around that vintage. And, they would NOT have the cat integrated into the exhaust manifold. Which should make for an easier swap.

Submitted by flu on December 14, 2012 - 12:52pm.

creechrr wrote:
What model car are we talking about?

I can only think of a handful that would be worth the effort around that vintage. And, they would have the cat integrated into the exhaust manifold.

Was thinking about miata, gutting it (remove AC/radio/passenger seat, top),,,, throwing a supercharger on it for start and adding a roll cage. Change the suspension.

Other than the cat...Pretty inexpensive to maintain.

Car needed new rotors and brakes too to get it home. The autozone special (non track use) pads and rotors were like $100...For everything...Lol.

That's about how much I spend on 1 weeks worth of gas...And I think that would buy exactly 1 brake pad for my other car(s)...

My budget for everything (at least start) was <$8k.

The nice thing is if I blow the engine, can probably find another one pretty easy.

Submitted by moneymaker on December 14, 2012 - 12:48pm.

I don't believe the first one was though. 16 years ago I don't think it was required. I could literally see right through the old one.

Submitted by creechrr on December 14, 2012 - 12:54pm.

Exactly what I was thinking. Looking for one myself.

I believe that cat was flanged. Should be easy peasy. Drive to Arizona. Pick up a power ball ticket while you're there.

Submitted by flu on December 14, 2012 - 12:59pm.

creechrr wrote:
Exactly what I was thinking. Looking for one myself.

I believe that cat was flanged. Should be easy peasy.

Well that's just great.. You're one of "those" people that's making it difficult for me to find one...
Thanks a lot :)

Well, I know of a person that's trying to sell one for pretty cheap... If you don't mind dealing with the cat :)

I think there's only one manufacturer of it... Magnaflow.

Bolt on is like $350...
Generic weld on is like $200. But then you need to find someone to weld it, and the shops are telling me $100 for welding....

Non-CA is $68!!!!! Same damn thing....WTF?

BTW: too bad this was a typo...

$1400 for a mazaspeed would have been a killer deal...

2004 Mazda Miata Speed MX5 - $1400 (Del Mar)

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/cto/3...

Submitted by creechrr on December 14, 2012 - 1:03pm.

I might be convinced to let you use my welder.

The add you linked and what you describe don't add up.

Submitted by flu on December 14, 2012 - 1:11pm.

creechrr wrote:
I might be convinced to let you use my welder.

The add you linked and what you describe don't add up.

I think the person who posted it made a typo. He meant $14000 but left off a 0 :)

It wasn't the car I was looking at, but something I saw just now....

Submitted by creechrr on December 14, 2012 - 1:15pm.

I figured as much. Or you had money to burn and were being cheap on the cat.

Submitted by ucodegen on December 14, 2012 - 6:09pm.

bearishgurl wrote:
flu, I know LOTS of people who have applied for and qualified for assistance in the last few years to get older vehicles smogged. The assistance is good to use at any CA Test and Repair stations.
The problem with that statement is that older cars can't go to CA Test and Repair, they have to go to Test Only stations. I know. My truck is one of these.. even though it is producing about 1/8th the amount of pollutants that are allowed for that vehicle.

Also be aware that Gov Brown added to the mess by preventing people from using Catalytic converters if the car originally didn't come with it. I thought the idea was to clean the air?? If you don't believe me on this, talk to the guy doing the test on your car. That is how I found out about it.

Submitted by ucodegen on December 14, 2012 - 6:16pm.

creechrr wrote:
What year car? OBDII?

Beginning January 1st, MY 2000 and newer will not have to spin the rollers for smog anymore. They going to start just checking the ECU for codes at a "STAR" station.

I think this could be beneficial to some with modified cars.

Correct.. and it will allow those that 'hack' the codes to fly through inspection even though the dyno test would fail them. I have no idea who thought up this lunacy. They are relying on a part that could be faked, altered, not working properly to tell you that all is working properly. - DUMB!

creechrr wrote:

I can't find the specific reference at the moment but, there was speculation that a verification of the code will be performed on '06 and newer vehicles. I assumption was that the check would be done by comparing the checksum data supplied by the OEM against what the ECU is reporting at the time of inspection. That could make reflahsing more challenging.
Doesn't exactly make reflashing harder.. remember which device is reporting the checksum in the first place.. the device that was reflashed! Just have it report the checksum for the original flash code! From what I remember, it doesn't upload the flash code to the test unit.. but there is also a way around that. Just requires a larger flash chip.

The notes I see are model year 2000 and more recent. AB 2289.. for those that like reading things:
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill...

Submitted by ucodegen on December 14, 2012 - 6:23pm.

creechrr wrote:
I personally have a car that is due for smog and I'm waiting till January. I want to see how this new process works or doesn't. My cat is 8 years old with a couple track days and canyon runs on it. I think I'd rather the port test.
OBDII systems have an additional oxygen sensor after the cat. This way it knows that the cat is working... It should read 0% oxygen. To use a 3 way cat, you have to have the mixture set very close to stichiometric for all 3 catalysts to work. Nitrous oxides require stichio to rich mixtures, hydrocarbon and carbon monoxide need stichio towards lean. The intersection of the two is where the 3 way cats work.

Submitted by CDMA ENG on December 14, 2012 - 7:22pm.

FLU!

What the hell are you doing... Track Car. Money Sink!

Sir... I have one word for you "Kart!".

There is nothing in this world that you are going to

A. Get that kind of acceleration
B. Pull that many G's
C. Spend so few dollars
D. Drive against some of the fastest racers out there

Only F1 rivals this and most F1 drivers come from Kart.

Go Cheap... Go Fast...

:P

CE

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