San Diego Housing Bubble News and Analysis

(5) Redacted.

I never understood the fascination with automakers sticking more and more electronics into cars these days.

Is it really that hard for someone to turn a key to start a car?

It has push button start, so the user could have just toss the keys out of the window and after a short distance, the car will shut off.

Here's a posting about somebody who supposedly took a dealer car and ran it trough the same scenario and the Saylor car:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthre...

Summary: You can't shift into neutral using the gate that is normally used, the computer overrides it at high speed. You have to shift into the center unmarked gate to shift into neutral. Again, this is like the start button, unless you know the specific steps involved in operating it in an emergency situation, your chance of working it correctly are almost nil'

Picture for reference:

http://l.yimg.com/dv/izp/lexus_es_350_20...

Doesn't work that way unfortunately.

The key being in proximity to the ignition is only required to start the car. Once started, the car will continue to run regardless of whether the key is present or not.

Not sure if this is accurate, but i tested this at a lower speed (60ish) and was able to pop it into the neutral. However, the thing I did notice is the design of the shift gate pattern is horrible from a usability perspective, because unless you have driven the car for some time and am use to shifting in between the gears, it takes awhile to get use moving the selector between te gears...It's especially confusing if you were in tiptronics(or whatever lexus calls it) mode (furtherest to the left) and are trying to shift back out. For one thing, if your trying to keep your car in control going 100+mph, you cant exactly look down. Hence, it probably was because Saylor wasn't familiar with the car, and couldn't figure out how to pop it into N and he couldn't exactly look down to see the gate.

I don't understand why auto makers try to make selectors like this. I guess it's to prevent people from accidentally shifting out of gear. I'd say it was effective for all the wrong reasons.

Rip Saylor and family.

Btw: the brake problem probably isn't just limited to lexuses.

Me thinks most cars these days have power-assisted brakes...Not a brake engineer, but don't they get they vacuum power from the engine? If an engine is at WOT, vacuum would drop after a few pumps, no?

Funny thing is I thought after the audi issues, that it was required when brakes are applied the ignition would be cut... I guess not.

Good God what an F'd up car.

Pushbutton ignitions should be banned or at least universally discontinued... the key-switch ignition is a hard, mechanical failsafe.

In our manufacturing-line machines at work, a hard, mechanically-switched interlock for shutting it off is required by the government safety organizations... you are not allowed to simply have an electric pushbutton to turn it off. That's not good enough if the machine is trying to chew your workerbee to death and the electric pushbutton decides to go FUBAR at that moment.

The poor Saylors. What a horrible feeling of helplessness his last seconds must have been-- "how can I turn this damn car OFF????"

Audi's problem was that the gas and brake pedals were too close together, and their brake pedal too small. The "unintended acceleration" was people hitting the accelerator thinking that it was the brake pedal.

Not sure how you'd actually be able to implement an "ignition cut-off" while braking (or even a fuel cutoff) - you'd have to put a lot of logic in wrt low speed exceptions (unless you want to restart your car every time you come to a stop - and stop-and-go traffic on the freeway would be just ridiculous), and it would pretty much kill every sports car out there as well.

Me thinks most cars these days have power-assisted brakes...Not a brake engineer, but don't they get they vacuum power from the engine? If an engine is at WOT, vacuum would drop after a few pumps, no?

Correct.. though some vehicles have hydroboost -- mostly trucks.

The vehicle will still stop in the same distance without the power assist.. it just takes more pedal pressure. The limit on braking depends upon the tires static and kinetic coefficient of friction with the road and thermal reserve in the brakes. The power assist just makes it easier to push the brake pedal.

However, the thing I did notice is the design of the shift gate pattern is horrible from a usability perspective
..
It's especially confusing if you were in tiptronics(or whatever lexus calls it) mode (furtherest to the left) and are trying to shift back out.

It didn't look too bad. Looking at the gate, the patterns I would have tried starting from the full left position would have been straight up (checking if the straight up past upshift toggle would lead to neutral - which is not likely), back to center-left, move lever right then up.. pause and then right again. I suspect one of those two last positions is neutral. I haven't driving this Lexus.. but surmising as an 'uninitiated'..

A quote from the forum referenced earlier

As the car surged forward I hit the brakes with my left foot hard at 80 mph, right foot still planted on the floorboard. The brakes hauled the car down, was it smooth, no, the car was shaking like the rotors were warped but I expect it was the anti-lock system kicking in. As I slowed enough to have ditched the car, put it against the rail, etc. Appx 20 mph and the brakes were still good....

..

This time I had about 1/3 the braking force as before and the car would not stop. It did slow but not easily and not nearly enough. I let off the brake pedal and ran it back up to 80. I immediately hit the brakes hard again. This time.....I had essentially no brakes. I stood on em. They had faded. My conclusion. On this car you have one chance to stop with the brakes with the engine at WOT.

This is essentially what I mentioned earlier with the braking. If the car is trying to do run-away acceleration.. don't try to use the brakes to keep the speed down and legal. Stop the car. Very few cars made these days can handle repeat stops under those conditions, and riding the brakes will just heat them up.

About the start/stop button. How do you normally stop the engine when you park it.. hold the button down for 3 seconds?? If that is the case, it is no different than when car is in motion. If it is different, this is the only one I could see that would be a problem for someone unfamiliar with the car.

All this also indicates that most of what the piggs brought up about the vehicle, would have worked.. with the only potential wildcard being the stop-start if it was different between at rest and in motion (ie. immediate shutdown when at rest and 3 sec delay when in motion)

what about the emergency brake? I would think that the e-brake in combination with even a semi-failing pedal brake would be enough to slow down to a non-fatal speed.

A comment I saw on the same forum, but further down.. a little OT for the current topic, but I think very accurate and says a lot:

Originally Posted by AaronCompNetSys
Great writeup. I pieced that whole thing together from various places, I don't understand why the media did not do what you did when it was first released. Controlling of information simply should now happen in the modern age.

This is why the media is losing out to everyday people reporting on the Internet.

The media could have informed the public on how to really shut the car off and to watch out for just trying to slow down the car when a run-away situation occurs.. but most of the media just played the emotional angle.

what about the emergency brake? I would think that the e-brake in combination with even a semi-failing pedal brake would be enough to slow down to a non-fatal speed.

That is the last brake you want to touch in that situation. It does not have the braking power that the normal brake has (less than 1/2 the braking power) and it makes the car unstable at speed, making it more likely to spin out or swap ends.

I won't go into detail about how to do boot-leg turns, but it does involve using the emergency brake. Boot-leg turns are the turns you see on the movies where a car is going full speed forward then suddenly spins around while sliding sideways and then faces the opposite direction and heads off in the opposite direction.

I'm very familiar with audi's problems. But as a result I thought there was a mandate that brake cuts throttle. I think ikt is entirely possible these days because several if cars these days don't really use a throttle cable but are drive by wire, so the throttle is electronically controlled anyway. Audi's been dbw since 2000, and when I did try to push the brake while still on the accelerator, the car's throttle did cut.

I think the ebrakes would have been useless with brakes toast. Also, I forget but I think the e-brake in the Lexus might not actually be an manual lever, but electrical. See image above...No ebrake handle next to selector, and I didn't see a ebrake pedal on the floor. Some cars use an electronic version these days. (another brilliant idea)

Who wants to bet in 2011, the ES won't have start/stop button anymore?

I'm betting all of Toyota will go back to turn-key-switch ignitions. As word spreads I wonder if anyone will even buy a pushbutton ignition car anymore. Makers may be forced back to a manual deadman switch type ignition.

I hope, anyway.