That's like saying that you can't comment on Trabant construction quality unless you've actually had the good fortune of owning one. There are other ways of finding out -- "on your own skin" isn't the only way.
Submitted by sdrealtor on July 28, 2012 - 10:51pm.
Please enlighten us oh great one. What are those other ways and how do you know?
I know Bob Toll personally and have at least a dozen friends who own Toll Brothers homes so I have a fairly large body of knowledge to draw from. What are you drawing from besides your bong?
so who should bear the risk of the market? assuming a 6 month period for the home construction. if the buyer can not qualify 6 month after signing, the builder is stuck with an empty spec home. the builder lost 6 month of opportunity to find another buyer for the home. in addition, with the example of the guy that lost his $100k deposit on a home that was $2.2 mil but was worth $1.4 mil when the home was completed, seem to me the $100k loss was a much better outcome vs being underwater by $800k.
Can't argue taste (in friends or houses), so I won't try.
I would be interested in regard to evidence that you based your comment on. Not arguing at all. I personally do not know Bob Toll, nor do I own or ever owned a Toll home, nor do I have friends that own Toll homes. They do have a good reputation, just curious about evidence to the contrary.
Why don't YOU provide evidence to the contrary other than lame name dropping and even lamer videos?
PS - laughing to the bank driving the "greasel" while others pay several C-notes per month for a new car, plus the costs of full insurance (i.e. more than just liability).
How about I do it instead. Please explain to me how foundation footings rated almost twice what code requires (4600 PSI versus 2600), and 2x4 wall studs on 12" centers represents shite construction. Go see some of the framed units at Stonebridge and note how much wood they use in these houses--it's awesome. Foundation slab is 10" instead of 4" per code. Fixtures are top quality, crown moulding is 7". Sure they use Silverline windows like every other builder out there, but they're probably fine in San diego. There is no comparison between their construction methods and any other available new home in Stonebridge. This info is right from my pre-drywall inspection, so I actually have bought a Toll home. I also knew Bob Toll in med school while I was dating his niece. Spent the holidays with him at a condo in Telluride. He's a nice guy that believes you'll survive best by offering a superior product.
I'd like more info on how you arrived at the conclusion their construction is shite. I can tell you this, my new place is put together one hell of a lot better than the place I just sold in Maryland, and that was built with bricks.
Construction quality also has to do with execution, not just initial design, you know. That's where all of the mass-produced-box builders fall down. If code only requires a 4" slab, then the problem is with the code!
So where's the evidence you have that shows their execution is faulty? From what I've seen so far of the finished work it looks quite good to me. Compared to the Maryland home, which had numerous gaps around switchplates and outlets, the Toll attention to detail appears far superior. I'm quite happy with the purchase, and can't wait to move in.
I have a feeling we're going to wait quite a long time for this "evidence", and will endure multiple straw men in the meantime.
Considering I spent the past week camping, hiking, and partying at my friends' house upstate, then had a long drive back, staying in on Sat. night was about right :)
Navydoc
He's just arguing for the sake of arguing. Thats his personality. He has no evidence.
Toll Bros builds a great product. They pretty much defined the McMansion when it all started. One of the things that differentiates them is they do the same thing the same way everywhere they go which is to build high quality McMansions. In contrast most other national builders redefine who they are in each market. You have companies like KHov which is a luxury homebuilder in SoCal and base quality builder (kinda like KB Home) back East. If you bought a high end Khov house in SD and told someone from NJ they'd look at you sideways.
So where's the evidence you have that shows their execution is faulty? From what I've seen so far of the finished work it looks quite good to me. Compared to the Maryland home, which had numerous gaps around switchplates and outlets, the Toll attention to detail appears far superior. I'm quite happy with the purchase, and can't wait to move in.
I have a feeling we're going to wait quite a long time for this "evidence", and will endure multiple straw men in the meantime.
Welcome back. On yeah welcome to the new piggington. Data optional and we're all experts. No experience required.
Considering I spent the past week camping, hiking, and partying at my friends' house upstate, then had a long drive back, staying in on Sat. night was about right :)
Did you camp and party in your backyard? You posted on July 23,24,25, 26.
Construction quality also has to do with execution, not just initial design, you know. That's where all of the mass-produced-box builders fall down. If code only requires a 4" slab, then the problem is with the code!
Construction quality also has to do with execution, not just initial design, you know. That's where all of the mass-produced-box builders fall down. If code only requires a 4" slab, then the problem is with the code!
Poorly "executed" answer.
CE
With the exception of the last sentence, it is a pretty accurate claim. Most, but far from all construction problems are execution rather than faulty design. Builders contract with subs who agree to build to spec, and then cut corners, sometimes occasionally, sometimes consistently. And sometimes, they just do it wrong. Every builder has these same problems.
But I'm not sure this discussion is really about design or workmanship. Generally, the more expensive a house is (as compared with the local market), the higher the quality of the products used to build the house. Builders can use inexpensive products and assemblies and not end up with defects. But cheap finishes make for cheap feeling houses, irrespective of the quality of the installation work.
Toll doesn't tend to build those houses. Hovnanian does in so cal. But generalizations can be dangerous. It can change from development to development.
(And in some situations, a 4" slab is perfectly acceptable. And one 4" slab is not exactly the same as every other 4" slab, concrete mix and assembly varies. Some conditions call for a thicker slab, irrespective of code.)
I'm not convinced that price dictates what's *inside* the walls of a new house, unless it's custom built. Builders are in it for the profit, and after the warranty and statute of limitations on suits expire, as long as it's to code, it's Not Their Problem.
I'm not convinced that price dictates what's *inside* the walls of a new house, unless it's custom built. Builders are in it for the profit, and after the warranty and statute of limitations on suits expire, as long as it's to code, it's Not Their Problem.
No, it doesn't. Because inside the walls, they're pretty much all the same. What makes a house feel like higher quality is the finishes. The cabinetry, applicances, flooring, doors and windows, etc. These finishes can add $100K or more to the cost of a house. (The kitchen appliances alone in my townhouse cost the builder $10-$15K more than if they had gone cheap. And that's one of the reasons I bought THIS house, instead of teh cheap one down the street.)
All buildiers are in it for the money. If builders can go cheap and sell the houses they build, they will. If the market requires they spend more in order to sell the houses, they'll do that too. Most of them know what they're doing, and build the right houses for the right markets.
So where's the evidence you have that shows their execution is faulty? From what I've seen so far of the finished work it looks quite good to me. Compared to the Maryland home, which had numerous gaps around switchplates and outlets, the Toll attention to detail appears far superior. I'm quite happy with the purchase, and can't wait to move in.
I have a feeling we're going to wait quite a long time for this "evidence", and will endure multiple straw men in the meantime.
The guy has no evidence. I doubt he has ever step into a Toll built home. Like he said, to him all builders are the same.
The more notorious builders by reputation appear to be Cornerstone, KHOV, and KB. As we have seen, lots of complaints about Cornerstones Montoro in Stonebridge. But apparently there's been issues with the higher end product, Tiburon, as well.
As it turns out, Cornerstone is still trying to complete the roughly 20 homesites of Montoro even after 3 and a half years and lower prices. Meanwhile Toll has already sold over 20 homes within the last 6 months despite a higher price point.
Have several rentals in CV built by Baldwin and Pardee, and others in other locations by various builders around town, and we've had to have quite a bit of work done on all of them. (Should clarify these are older homes that we purchased 20+ years ago. I'm sure the newer homes in CV are much better constructed, and that this has just been our personal experience.)
All are in great locations, but the workmanship leaves much to be desired. Our primary is custom, so that's really a different story.
Have always heard good things about Toll and Davidson. Have been hearing good things from friends about McCullough lately, but don't know much about them.
Have several rentals in CV built by Baldwin and Pardee, and others in other locations by various builders around town, and we've had to have quite a bit of work done on all of them. (Should clarify these are older homes that we purchased 20+ years ago. I'm sure the newer homes in CV are much better constructed, and that this has just been our personal experience.)
All are in great locations, but the workmanship leaves much to be desired. Our primary is custom, so that's really a different story.
Have always heard good things about Toll and Davidson. Have been hearing good things from friends about McCullough lately, but don't know much about them.
Back in another life, I worked in the surety and insurance biz for Willis and we did a lot of business in the construction industry. While our primary focus was surety bonds for public works projects, we also interacted quite a bit with residential contractors as well, mainly in subdivision bonds, fidelity bonds and liability insurance.
The one thing we always paid particular attention to was the number of times the contractor had been sued for latent defect and construction defect and the number of CSLB complaints for not only poor workmanship, but how long it took them to correct these problems.
This is going back a bit, but I recall that Toll Bros had an enviable reputation for quality and customer service, unlike some other big name residential GCs (who shall remain nameless.)
Another interesting observation I've made before. At least when it comes to SD, Toll's timing of the market was spot on, no purchase of any lots during the peak, came in and bought up a bunch of lots in premium neighborhoods with steep discount after the bust. Nicely played!
Did they just get lucky in SD? Or are they consistent with this nationwide?
ouch...
Considering TB's sh!te construction quality, the depositors may have been better off reneging, deposit or no.
Have you ever owned a Toll Brothers home? If not how can you comment on their construction quality?
That's like saying that you can't comment on Trabant construction quality unless you've actually had the good fortune of owning one. There are other ways of finding out -- "on your own skin" isn't the only way.
Please enlighten us oh great one. What are those other ways and how do you know?
I know Bob Toll personally and have at least a dozen friends who own Toll Brothers homes so I have a fairly large body of knowledge to draw from. What are you drawing from besides your bong?
Can't argue taste (in friends or houses), so I won't try.
so who should bear the risk of the market? assuming a 6 month period for the home construction. if the buyer can not qualify 6 month after signing, the builder is stuck with an empty spec home. the builder lost 6 month of opportunity to find another buyer for the home. in addition, with the example of the guy that lost his $100k deposit on a home that was $2.2 mil but was worth $1.4 mil when the home was completed, seem to me the $100k loss was a much better outcome vs being underwater by $800k.
I would be interested in regard to evidence that you based your comment on. Not arguing at all. I personally do not know Bob Toll, nor do I own or ever owned a Toll home, nor do I have friends that own Toll homes. They do have a good reputation, just curious about evidence to the contrary.
Here's the evidence as provided by a greasel driving NYer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atfXQIVuywc
Why don't YOU provide evidence to the contrary other than lame name dropping and even lamer videos?
PS - laughing to the bank driving the "greasel" while others pay several C-notes per month for a new car, plus the costs of full insurance (i.e. more than just liability).
How about I do it instead. Please explain to me how foundation footings rated almost twice what code requires (4600 PSI versus 2600), and 2x4 wall studs on 12" centers represents shite construction. Go see some of the framed units at Stonebridge and note how much wood they use in these houses--it's awesome. Foundation slab is 10" instead of 4" per code. Fixtures are top quality, crown moulding is 7". Sure they use Silverline windows like every other builder out there, but they're probably fine in San diego. There is no comparison between their construction methods and any other available new home in Stonebridge. This info is right from my pre-drywall inspection, so I actually have bought a Toll home. I also knew Bob Toll in med school while I was dating his niece. Spent the holidays with him at a condo in Telluride. He's a nice guy that believes you'll survive best by offering a superior product.
I'd like more info on how you arrived at the conclusion their construction is shite. I can tell you this, my new place is put together one hell of a lot better than the place I just sold in Maryland, and that was built with bricks.
Construction quality also has to do with execution, not just initial design, you know. That's where all of the mass-produced-box builders fall down. If code only requires a 4" slab, then the problem is with the code!
So where's the evidence you have that shows their execution is faulty? From what I've seen so far of the finished work it looks quite good to me. Compared to the Maryland home, which had numerous gaps around switchplates and outlets, the Toll attention to detail appears far superior. I'm quite happy with the purchase, and can't wait to move in.
I have a feeling we're going to wait quite a long time for this "evidence", and will endure multiple straw men in the meantime.
What a way to spend a Saturday night.
Considering I spent the past week camping, hiking, and partying at my friends' house upstate, then had a long drive back, staying in on Sat. night was about right :)
Navydoc
He's just arguing for the sake of arguing. Thats his personality. He has no evidence.
Toll Bros builds a great product. They pretty much defined the McMansion when it all started. One of the things that differentiates them is they do the same thing the same way everywhere they go which is to build high quality McMansions. In contrast most other national builders redefine who they are in each market. You have companies like KHov which is a luxury homebuilder in SoCal and base quality builder (kinda like KB Home) back East. If you bought a high end Khov house in SD and told someone from NJ they'd look at you sideways.
I have a feeling we're going to wait quite a long time for this "evidence", and will endure multiple straw men in the meantime.
Welcome back. On yeah welcome to the new piggington. Data optional and we're all experts. No experience required.
Did you camp and party in your backyard? You posted on July 23,24,25, 26.
Poorly "executed" answer.
CE
Don't have a back yard since I live in an apartment ;)
Ain't mobile devices grand?
Poorly "executed" answer.
CE
With the exception of the last sentence, it is a pretty accurate claim. Most, but far from all construction problems are execution rather than faulty design. Builders contract with subs who agree to build to spec, and then cut corners, sometimes occasionally, sometimes consistently. And sometimes, they just do it wrong. Every builder has these same problems.
But I'm not sure this discussion is really about design or workmanship. Generally, the more expensive a house is (as compared with the local market), the higher the quality of the products used to build the house. Builders can use inexpensive products and assemblies and not end up with defects. But cheap finishes make for cheap feeling houses, irrespective of the quality of the installation work.
Toll doesn't tend to build those houses. Hovnanian does in so cal. But generalizations can be dangerous. It can change from development to development.
(And in some situations, a 4" slab is perfectly acceptable. And one 4" slab is not exactly the same as every other 4" slab, concrete mix and assembly varies. Some conditions call for a thicker slab, irrespective of code.)
I'm not convinced that price dictates what's *inside* the walls of a new house, unless it's custom built. Builders are in it for the profit, and after the warranty and statute of limitations on suits expire, as long as it's to code, it's Not Their Problem.
No, it doesn't. Because inside the walls, they're pretty much all the same. What makes a house feel like higher quality is the finishes. The cabinetry, applicances, flooring, doors and windows, etc. These finishes can add $100K or more to the cost of a house. (The kitchen appliances alone in my townhouse cost the builder $10-$15K more than if they had gone cheap. And that's one of the reasons I bought THIS house, instead of teh cheap one down the street.)
All buildiers are in it for the money. If builders can go cheap and sell the houses they build, they will. If the market requires they spend more in order to sell the houses, they'll do that too. Most of them know what they're doing, and build the right houses for the right markets.
I have a feeling we're going to wait quite a long time for this "evidence", and will endure multiple straw men in the meantime.
The guy has no evidence. I doubt he has ever step into a Toll built home. Like he said, to him all builders are the same.
The more notorious builders by reputation appear to be Cornerstone, KHOV, and KB. As we have seen, lots of complaints about Cornerstones Montoro in Stonebridge. But apparently there's been issues with the higher end product, Tiburon, as well.
As it turns out, Cornerstone is still trying to complete the roughly 20 homesites of Montoro even after 3 and a half years and lower prices. Meanwhile Toll has already sold over 20 homes within the last 6 months despite a higher price point.
All builders are the same? Absolutely pathetic.
While we are on builders, where does Davidson rank?
Davidson homes are excellent, lots of attention to details. Head to head vs Toll Bro? Not sure.
Have several rentals in CV built by Baldwin and Pardee, and others in other locations by various builders around town, and we've had to have quite a bit of work done on all of them. (Should clarify these are older homes that we purchased 20+ years ago. I'm sure the newer homes in CV are much better constructed, and that this has just been our personal experience.)
All are in great locations, but the workmanship leaves much to be desired. Our primary is custom, so that's really a different story.
Have always heard good things about Toll and Davidson. Have been hearing good things from friends about McCullough lately, but don't know much about them.
All are in great locations, but the workmanship leaves much to be desired. Our primary is custom, so that's really a different story.
Have always heard good things about Toll and Davidson. Have been hearing good things from friends about McCullough lately, but don't know much about them.
Back in another life, I worked in the surety and insurance biz for Willis and we did a lot of business in the construction industry. While our primary focus was surety bonds for public works projects, we also interacted quite a bit with residential contractors as well, mainly in subdivision bonds, fidelity bonds and liability insurance.
The one thing we always paid particular attention to was the number of times the contractor had been sued for latent defect and construction defect and the number of CSLB complaints for not only poor workmanship, but how long it took them to correct these problems.
This is going back a bit, but I recall that Toll Bros had an enviable reputation for quality and customer service, unlike some other big name residential GCs (who shall remain nameless.)
Another interesting observation I've made before. At least when it comes to SD, Toll's timing of the market was spot on, no purchase of any lots during the peak, came in and bought up a bunch of lots in premium neighborhoods with steep discount after the bust. Nicely played!
Did they just get lucky in SD? Or are they consistent with this nationwide?
Interesting, Allan. I'm sure you'd have many stories to tell in this regard.