Honduras

User Forum Topic
Submitted by CardiffBaseball on June 30, 2009 - 4:04pm

I know Allen has opined in the past regarding Central American foreign policy issues.... anyone please add as you see fit.

I am not as wise in the ways of international constitutional crisis, but why are we taking the side of Chavez in this matter?

My cursory reading of the matter is that the Honduran Supreme Court was acting within the constitution when they ordered the military to remove Zelaya from office. That he was seen as attempting to circumvent the constitution to allow him to remain in office past the alloted four-year term. That is there are provisions for amending the constitution but that he was subverting these methods in attempt to become a dictator. This doesn't sound like a coup to me. Well I haven't checked dates perhaps he still has some time left in office?

Is that scenario basically correct? Is there more to it, something I am missing? I am struggling as to why Hillary and Obama are lashing out at the elected Honduran govt. My wife was born and raised there for 17 years, and at one time (maybe still?) had dual-citizenship.

‹ OT: "The Goods" Movie from Will Ferrell, set in Temecula Madoff Gets 150 years...Would you support the death penalty for his crime? ›
I spent a total of about six
Submitted by AK on June 30, 2009 - 5:28pm.

I spent a total of about six months in Honduras, but had relatively little contact with civilians. I left with the impression of a desperately poor yet fiercely proud country that chafed at living in the cultural and economic shadows of both the United States and Mexico. The alliance with the United States seemed like one of temporary convenience and the Hondurans reminded us of their sovereignty at every possible opportunity.

From what I've read Zelaya's own civilian government refused to carry out the proposed referendum, after which he turned to the military which likewise balked at obeying his orders. The ensuing Nixonesque "Saturday Night Massacre" set off the chain of events that resulted in Zelaya's removal.

In all of the discussion and reporting of the events in Honduras I've heard very little about the desires and interests of the Honduran people ... most of what I read is about the interests and opinions of Venezuela, Argentina, and other governments thousands of miles away. I doubt that foreign influence sits well with the average Honduran, whether in the form of Yanqui imperialismo or Venezuelan Chavismo.

On a more humorous note, there was one memorable act of terrorism while I was there ... someone fired an RPG at a foreign-owned brewery and damaged a storage tank full of Cerveza Port Royal Export. I still think of this as a crime against humanity.

I completely agree that this
Submitted by waiting for bottom on June 30, 2009 - 5:35pm.

I completely agree that this does not seem like a coup.

I am trying to give Obama the benefit of the doubt that you can't just forcibily remove an elected President from office...a slippery slope.

But it also seems clear Zelaya wasn't going to take no for an answer - see Chavez.

"A patriot defends his country against its government"

http://www.alertnet.org/thene
Submitted by OnPoint on June 30, 2009 - 9:30pm.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk...

30 Jun 2009 15:09:15 GMT
Source: Reuters
WASHINGTON, June 30 (Reuters) - The World Bank has "paused" all program lending to Honduras following a military coup in the impoverished country, World Bank President Robert Zoellick said on Tuesday.

"We're working closely with the OAS (Organization of American States) and looking to the OAS to deal with its handling of the crisis under its democratic charter," Zoellick told reporters, "In the process we have put a pause with our lending." (Reporting by Lesley Wroughton; Editing by James Dalgleish)
###

I think AK hit the nail on
Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on June 30, 2009 - 8:42pm.

I think AK hit the nail on the head with his assessment.

Glenn Garvin at the Miami Herald wrote a good article about the events leading up to the "coup" (which appears to be the Honduran Army responding to orders from the Honduran Supreme Court acting within the guidelines of their constitution, which Zelaya was trying to hijack) and also the varying responses from the US, the OAS and, best of all, Hugo Chavez, who is now openly threatening to depose Zelaya's interim replacement.

http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/other...

I don't know if Hillary Clinton didn't receive a complete briefing from her NSC folks, but she is about as far off the beam as possible on this one.

Zelaya is clearly in the wrong here. I'm not sure about sending him to Costa Rica (versus, say, house arrest while the Honduran Supreme Court sorts this out), but at least they didn't shoot him and throw him in a ditch. Oh, wait, that's Guatemala.

Thanks for the link to that
Submitted by AK on July 1, 2009 - 8:53am.

Thanks for the link to that enlightening op-ed, AFF.

I'm hoping that Obama and HRC are merely engaging in plausible deniability and are quietly seeking alternatives to Zelaya's return. I find it much more difficult to give the benefit of the doubt to the mainstream U.S. media, which have been eating up the Chavista party line like a bunch of bleating sheep at pasture.

I mean, have any of them thought of talking to some actual HONDURANS?

The whole world is coup..
Submitted by Arraya on July 1, 2009 - 5:11pm.

The whole world is coup.. coup

First rule of US foreign policy in regards to Latin American politics:

-If a democratically elected leader wishes not to do business with west in a manner to their liking. They must be demonized and steps must be taken to overthrow said leader. Without fail.

http://www.counterpunch.org/thorensen070...

The Honduran Supreme Court of Justice, Attorney General, National Congress, Armed Forces and Supreme Electoral Tribunal have all falsely accused Manuel Zelaya of attempting a referendum to extend his term in office.
snip

Nevertheless, this is far from what President Zelaya attempted to do in Honduras the past Sunday and which the Honduran political/military elites disliked so much. President Zelaya intended to perform a non-binding public consultation, about the conformation of an elected National Constituent Assembly. To do this, he invoked article 5 of the Honduran “Civil Participation Act” of 2006. According to this act, all public functionaries can perform non-binding public consultations to inquire what the population thinks about policy measures. This act was approved by the National Congress and it was not contested by the Supreme Court of Justice, when it was published in the Official Paper of 2006. That is, until the president of the republic employed it in a manner that was not amicable to the interests of the members of these institutions.

http://informationclearinghouse.info/art...

There is a lot of great analysis circulating on the military coup against Manuel Zelaya in Honduras. I do not see a need to re-invent the wheel. (See here here here and here). However, a few key things jump out at me. First, we know that the coup was led by Gen. Romeo Vasquez, a graduate of the US Army School of the Americas. As we know very well from history, these “graduates” maintain ties to the US military as they climb the military career ladders in their respective countries. That is a major reason why the US trains these individuals.

It is impossible to imagine that the US was not aware that the coup was in the works. In fact, this was basically confirmed by The New York Times in Monday’s paper:

As the crisis escalated, American officials began in the last few days to talk with Honduran government and military officials in an effort to head off a possible coup. A senior administration official, who briefed reporters on the condition of anonymity, said the military broke off those discussions on Sunday.

So they knew it was going down, then condemned it.

Just so everybody's clear on what he was attempting to do, was to have THE PEOPLE vote on whether to amend the constitution and allow a second term for the president. Not to vote for him, but a vote to see if a second term limit should be allowed.

The military took over because the supreme court found him to be in violation of a the proper protocol to hold a vote for the people.

So the supreme court did not want the people to be heard. Sounds like the 2000 election.

In November, Zelaya hailed Obama’s election in the U.S. as “a hope for the world,” but just two months later tensions began to emerge. In an audacious letter sent personally to Obama, Zelaya accused the U.S. of “interventionism” and called on the new administration in Washington to respect the principle of non-interference in the political affairs of other nations.

US intelligence agencies have been busy little beavers over the past few months.

The people are resisting, beginning to take the streets, block the roads
- dozens of buses of people coming to the capital from other parts of the country
- over 10,000 people gathered yesterday in the Honduran capital Tegucigalpa to protest the military coup, and they were violently dispersed by the military, using tear gas and guns (not clear if rubber bullets or otherwise). More protests are planned for today.
- There are wounded and dead, but numbers are still unclear
- our friends in Honduras have been to hospitals and have documented some cases
- THE OFFICIAL HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION AND THE FISCAL (ATTORNEY GENERAL) ARE REFUSING TO DOCUMENT THE ABUSES, AND ARE SUPPORTING THE COUP GOVERNMENT. COFADEH ASKS THAT WE DENOUNCE THESE OFFICIALS AS NOT FULFILLING THEIR DUTY AS DEFENDERS OF HUMAN RIGHTS. THEY ARE RAMON CUSTODIO, DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION AND SANDRA PONCE, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL.
Electricity is constantly being cut off, then comes again
- Censorship of the t.v. media, only channels of rightwing media being shown
- Coup govenrment is using well-known human rights abusers and their spokespersons
- Strike of schools and workers taking place